Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Black Fat Film Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio
and Doctor John Paul LLC. Hey, everyone, welcome to another
episode of the BLACKFATFM podcast, where all the intersections of
identity are celebrated. I am one of your hosts, John
also known as Doctor John Paul. And while you were
trying to figure out why your laboo boo was being

(00:20):
held up in customs, I had the most delightfully splendid
chocolate chip cookie in the Delta sky Lounge yesterday. Delta
sponsor the show Girl, but also where do y'all get
them cookies? And where can I get more of them?
So I have learned that there is a cap.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
You know.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
You know, I've been battling with my sugars, right, everybody
who's been listening knows that sugar diabetes has been trying
to take your girl out. But she's she's maintaining and
she's managed. And I had one cookie yesterday and it
was tasty. It was fantastic, almost as good as Panera
Bread's kitchens.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
See cookie almost. I'm not gonna give it that much,
but it was good. It was really really good. So
I just want to throw that out there.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
A Delta Skyline y'all did what y'all needed to do
with that cookie, and it definitely put me where I
needed to be. The food not so much that I
don't know if y'all know the Delta Skyline situation. The
food ain't ever really that great, but the cookie it hit.
But anyway, how are you queen?

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Y'all? Ho pause real quick? Do you hear a beeping?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
That's me? Sorry along hotel hold on.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
First, I was, I was like, come on, background music,
m it was. It was giving renaissance. You you, you
and I.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
You, and I was like work and I was like, oh,
this is not this is not purpose. Hey, fam, it's
your an ak yo hoe, your favorite values on the intranets.
Calling again from other fucking n y see. I canna
tell y'all.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
These subway stairs, these fourth floor walk ups.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
God damn, I best be honest at the end of
my time here, because Lord us in heaven. What I
have friends who blessed bless their souls, they live on
like they live on the fourth floor, which actually means
you gotta go up five flights and stairs because the
fourth floor, the first floor just for shifts and giggles.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
It's just for funzies.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
You just walk in, You walk up a small flight
starts to get into the door. Then you were like,
oh the first floor. They're like, oh no, JK, girl,
that's actually just like the mail room. And you gotta
walk up five more flights and stairs to the fourth
down floor to get to four B and becoming the
last flight stairs each time took me all out here and.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Like they all come on, girl. I was like, I'd
be right there, okay, Like you got other oh my god?
And the subway? Tell me why the subway on my dad?

Speaker 4 (02:51):
Why can't just give me a ramp across the platform?
Why got to go all the way downstairs? Two flights
then go oh.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Tonn then go up? Also, how you got subways on
top of subways? Like, tell me why?

Speaker 4 (03:05):
I was thinking she's a local now I would say,
in the one train okay, And turns out the one
train is actually is actually a floor above the the
the end train. Why do you why are the top
of each other? Because we're with collapses. I'm gonna sandwich
a bitch. That's not for me now, I now I do.
I'm promising this is not for me. By promiself. This
week I have been I see, girly, I've been a

(03:27):
local girl. I like, I have mastered the subway. Really,
I've been doing the damn thing. But I just like tebody.
I explained to me, like, do I love the subway?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yes? Is it convenient? Yes, I'm you know, I'm a
bart bitch in the Bay. I'm used. I'm used to trains.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
What I do find funny is that here, when it
crosses the water, it goes on the bridge, right, So
people in New York are like, your train goes underwater,
as if that's crazy compared to two trains on top
of each other.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
There's a tunnel that So when I was there back
in April, there was a tunnel that we drove under,
and he was like, yeah, we're underwater.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
So why is it I don't know you have that? Yeah,
so y'all can have that.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
I don't do subways like that. Oh, I.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Said, I take me a car.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
I take me a car everywhere everywhere, even last night,
someone was like, oh, you could take a train. Like
when I was in Chicago was trying to get to
the airports, it was like, oh, you could take the train.
And I looked at them and I said, do I
look like a training girl. No, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I do not look like a trained girl.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
My coworkers would be like, oh if my co workers
who don't live in New York were like, I would
never take the subway, and I was like, now you
call me poor girl.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
I'm sorry, I'm for the people. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm
I'm no. But I will say in a car when
that's crazy? Is that like like like like a friend.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
I have a friend out to lunch and she was
in Williamsburg and where I was was in Crown Heights,
which is in the same burrow. And she was like, OK,
take me goodn hour fifte minutes to get there. Bitch,
it's three miles, three miles. In San Diego, I can
go three miles and five minutes.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
I said, well you can in La So I mean that.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
I was like, I was like, it's y'all and now
and now, and now I get why people say ding
via borrough ding different boroughs is a commitment because because
I surely was. I I was surely was in Brooklyn
that had in Brooklyn live that night, and I said, oh,
I have to go back to the city and I'm
not gonna make a girl I'm I'm.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Sorry, I won't make it, but yes, But with that
being said, I understand your struggle with the stairs because
Chicago almost had your girl down at the airport. They
don't have a lot of elevators, but they do have
a lot of stairs. And when I got when I
did find an elevator I needed to find, there was
a McDonald's next to it. And I said, I knew

(05:38):
I was Belzebub's favorite. I just knew it. I knew
I was the Devil's Yeah. AnyWho, today we have a
wonderful guest, which I know y'all probably tied of just
us talking at the kidsen table. So with that being said,
we're gonna bring a third person in and I am
really excited to introduce them.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Now.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
I have been a fan of their work for a
very long time. They are a fantastic educator, a grassroots leader,
and a former board member of the Audrey Lord Project.
Come on, Audrey Lord talking about the blueprint of mental
health and peating your life together. Audrey definitely definitely got
the girls together and it continues to even in their legacy,

(06:20):
still do the same.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
So I love that for us.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
She is also the executive director of the Gay, Lesbian
and Straight Education Network, And if you don't know what that.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Is, that's pleasing.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
So with that being said, it is one of the
leading orgs and anti discrimination work for lgbt Q individuals
in youth, and so it's just a pleasure just to
have them. Melanie, thank you so much for being on
our show today.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
Thanks so much for having me, y'all, and not to
use in our whole government name.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
I feel like, yeah, right right, but you know, you
got to let the girlies.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Know that.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
You just said blistered and everybody's like, okay, we know
what that is. But for those who don't, okay, because
every time, every time I have to put down GLAD,
sometimes I have to spell it out and I'll be
on the internet like.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
What you say the whole all the letters that GLAD stands.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
For, no.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right corner resume or when you're when you have somebody
you know was it was like, well what is glad?

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Because there are still people out there who have no
idea what glad? It is?

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Right, I'll be on the internet real quick, like what
the hell does last stand for?

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Listen journalists and apt says the first time you mentioned
you out and then then and then you can acronymic
go afterwards an amen.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
And not all the dolls who got a mic our.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Journalists out there, but other some of us got degrees
in it.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
But anyway, that's not you know, it's.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
A quick question.

Speaker 4 (07:54):
So is it pronounce I listen the songs gonna be
a slip.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
It's like, yeah, I promised will bringing this in some
serious ship.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
I promise week off this we would do every week
by suffering our girls, Sisha Campbell.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
It's speaking into our youth education back.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
I want to start off by asking you basketball the y'll,
what did you first learn about queer.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
History in school? What was it you learned. I'll go
first while past the genre pasted to Melanie.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
I know for me, God, honestly, I think it was
like a be lip in high school, like a blip
and like mind you like like I went to a
multicultural really like diverse high school. Like we learn about
black history with Asian history, about the Last Night history,
but like gay gay history, right, but it's called gay history.
I think we learned maybe learn about we learned about

(08:48):
people like gay just quote unquote gay people in.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
The Holocaust who were marked with the upisode about down
Pine Truck.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
We learned that for like a literal was like it
was like right, like you you over your text books,
you see the Holocaust, you see you see you see history.
You see maybe one page of the Holocaust one uh
one three page paragraph.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
About about gay people in the Holocaust. And then we maybe.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Barely and then maybe we learned about I think we
learned about like HIV and AIDS, but.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Like but just how it was just how it was
like only for.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Gay people, like it was not much where like I know,
I know there was there was no education about Marsham,
no about Savilla nov caation about Star, no education about
you know, the Stonewall riots, no issue about the company
key cafeteria rights, which I'm on the Bay areas. How
do you not give me my own history in San
Francisco like the hid and give it to that. That's
my first talking about it in school. And it was

(09:41):
really like really a minimal education. We you know, we
had a g s A. We did not have no
anti discrimination laws or like you know, we had no
say space stickers. It was not space girl. It was
a brave space if that it was a space you
guy going you want to go on gage by yourself
and call that good DM day like it was rough
in Theomse treets.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
But I'm curious for y'all, what was it like for you? John?

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, so, you know, I think kind of to your
same point as you were talking about that, I initially
had said that I didn't learn anything but very much
kind of the same thing. There were like blips, right,
so we had the GSA, We had our GSA at school,
and even then I was kind of like really scared
to go. But it was very much And I will
say what what I did learn, or even what I
did know, was a very whitewashed history. And I didn't

(10:27):
really I wasn't able to really dive into that history.
And again, and so there's a part of me that
also has to make sure that I know, right, like
I'm from the Inlin Empire for those of you who
know who don't know.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
The Eleen Empire.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
If you you you know, you think, oh so, and
we've talked about this, right, I think it was like
episode we talked about, you know, the ways that California
is very much kind of diverse but not diverse, if
that makes sense. And so growing up in the Ie
it was very much kind of like, well, we'll teach you,
but it's going to be very white. And so I
only really knew about Harvey Milk. I knew about some

(11:01):
of the stuff that happened in San Francisco, but that
was like it. It wasn't until I got into college
when it's specifically my master's program. And so I mean
obviously that that should be able to shape how old
I was when I really was like, oh, I know
what queer history is. You know, my master's program is
where I learned about Angela Davis and the work that
she did. That's when I was able to talk about
Bayart Rusten. That's when I really started to understand who

(11:24):
even Audrey Lord was and what she was doing, what
she was trying to help folks do. And so it
was it was truly my doctoral program where I really
got activated in the work right in terms of black
queer history, where I was able to spend a lot
of time really looking at intersectionality from a very queer lens.
And I want to shout out my dissertation chair, doctor Reynolds,

(11:44):
for helping me with that. Love you girl, because it
was you know, it was very cool to be able
to have a dissertation chair who said I know what
you want to do, and I see what you want
to do, and these.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Are people that you need to be studying in order
to do that.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
And so I'm always very grateful for doctor Reynolds, because
I don't think I would be who I am if
it wasn't for her and folks.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Like her at my program.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Because K through twelve I didn't know anything about you know,
just none of it. James Baldwin, who right like that,
none of that, well, none of my undergrad or even
my K through twelve was shaped by that. And so
I just want to say, I think we need more
black queer history in schools, and shout out to the educators.
I know that they're educators who intentionally say we're not

(12:27):
just going to learn about black bear history in February.
You're going to learn about it in every single part
of the history that we teach. And I think it's
really know their history. So I want to say, shout
out to the educators who are intentionally doing that. But
what about you, Melanie, that's a good question.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
I'm so happy I'm going third because I had all
this time to think about it. And here's what I
would say, which is, you know, I'm like of that
elder millennial cohort that understood that you go to school
so that you don't have to go to like jail
for skiptotal t right school to learn like you, You
don't go to school to get told the truth you
get you get through school to get the receipt right.

(13:04):
And so well, I come through, I come, I come
through my I came through my education understanding that the
real education I was getting was outside of school. And
so I say all that to say that I don't
know if I ever learned about queer history. It definitely
not in my k through twelve experience. I grew up
a couple of different places from Cincinnati, Ohio. I moved

(13:27):
out to Altadena, California when I was eleven, and so
I went to school out there in nearby and Pastena.
Yeah it doesn't exist anymore, which is this wo interesting? Yeah,
so all this say, I went to the all girls
Catholic school, and we had we had a lesbian teacher.

(13:48):
Shout out to Miss Tamaso, who was like the creative
writing teacher, like you know, butch like short hair, you know,
picture it it's sineteen ninety six. She was giving.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
She was given Daria's sister. So, yeah, very much. I
came from Seattle just to be here, y'all. Yeah very
much give me.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
So like I knew of her, right, and I knew
of other queer people in real life. But like again,
I didn't go to school to be told what the
universe was, right. I like, I went in trouble and
then went out with my little knucklehead friends. Again, elder
millennial youngest gen X like self parenting. You know, we
were fair all as hell, and so what we knew
we either heard from somebody or we made up and

(14:37):
just assumed it right. So all, just to say I
don't think that I ever. I don't actually recall when
I received education, formal education around queer people number one,
and then black San Francisco from San Francisco for college,
and then when I in my master's program actually did
a trip with my some people in my cohort a

(14:58):
learning exchange in Rwanda and funny story about teaching black
queer history. We went there and we're doing some art.
I have a master's degree in applied theater, and one
of the theater pieces we were doing was based on
Langston Hughes's poem Mother to Son poem like you know life.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
And.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
We mentioned like, oh, okay, well we've just gone through this.
Langston Hughes is like American black queer blah blah blah
blah blah, and just literally said that like black gay
it's from the Harlem Renaissance, and among the cohort it was.
It raised the whole big thing of like, is this
culture imperialism? How dare we tell people when their government
says that there are no gay people in this country?

(15:40):
How dare we come in and say that this person
was gay? I'm like, this is gonna be the hill
I die on. So all that to say, I hope
I think at some point I was probably the first
person in my own education experience to bring in blackness
and queerness in a classroom setting or in a learning
setting and a.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Really touchy.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
I also will never like it's so interesting to like
to be like like that to the the debate with
yourself is this culture and peralism?

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Like right, because like just.

Speaker 5 (16:14):
Like well way it was with other people.

Speaker 4 (16:18):
But I think it's interesting, like you're just like a
conversation because you go you go from like, well, like
we're teaching like actual factual history to people and you know,
like and like when it comes to the.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Culture differences between other countries, that's just so fast thing. Wow. Okay,
oh okay.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
Now that we have told y'all listeners to take a
look it's in the book and learn the history and
learn about all the things in between.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Ooh, if we gotta pay some bills and.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
Doing to bbs because they don't mass street, because that
also educates the kids.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Okay, we need.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
That more in our in our in our youth lives.
We're about to talk more with Melanie and Calgary is
in just a sect.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
All right, y'all, we are back and Butterfly and discuss
I can go for us says, take a look, it's in.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
A book, a reading reigno.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
So yes, I just I had to do that because
it was aforementioned in our last section.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
But with that being said that, we are in a
space with a.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Group of educators today and I'm really really excited to
get into this combo because I think we have we've
touched on it, we've kind of you know, dabbled around
this notion of kind of where we are in America
around education and how it's going to impact the youth.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Dim and yeah, the you.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Dim And I'm constantly worried, right. I think that's really
the only the only way I can say it is
not even just thinking about our queer babies, but thinking
about just children in general, and so knowing that many
of them are under attack right now just as much
as we are. I wanted to centerr today's conversation in
youth education mainly talking about our future and basically, you know,

(18:09):
I know Whitney said our children are our future, but
I'm gonna just say it real, Nigga is worried. I'm
worried not only for the babies, but I'm worried for
the educational system as a whole. And so what it's
giving h you know, and what's giving a state of
the Union in this moment, I wanted to ask specific you, Melanie,
what is LGBTQ education like for youth right now in

(18:32):
schools and for folks listening who might be concerned or
who may not really know what's going on, why should
they be concerned?

Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah? So, John Dewey is one of is one of
my favorite kind of thinkers. He's a foundational thinker around
what we understand. It is like progressive education in this country.
And so I'm always quote this is like I leve
me some Dewey. This is my favorite quote of his,
which says that democracy has to be born anew every generation,
and education is its midwife. Right, So we are understanding.

(19:04):
So Bell Hooks also talks about right, how the social
order is rebuilt, reconstructed every generation. And so two things right. One,
the education system is doing what it's meant to do.
It is recreating a social order again for this generation.
You and me and us and the listeners would disagree

(19:27):
that the social order it's creating is the one we
want to live in, is the one we want our
children in. And so fundamentally we are in a place
where we are fighting for the future. And that's the case.
That's the case all the time, That's the case every
single generation. And here we are right. It's both. It
is a blessing and it is across to bear and
here we are right. Ain't nobody come in but us.

(19:49):
We are the I don't know who left us in charge,
but here we are. And I know I'm getting into
middle age the way I've been having like baby hot
flashes of like, Okay, so I'm definitely the adult because
I'm in par menopause. So here.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
I am definitely the gay uncle auntie. Yeah, I feel it.
I feel it, you know.

Speaker 5 (20:07):
Yeah. So here's what I would say about all of this,
which is to say that again and I come, I'm
like this elder millennial. So I know that you don't
trust corporations. I know that teachers aren't necessarily going to
be teaching you the truth. I know that our history
is hidden, right. I come from that generation and you
know the conspiracy theories and the hotels like that's also

(20:27):
the generation like the hip hop kind of uh, you know,
scientists among us, like we we know it's not perfect.
But but I think that part of what is really
disturbing to me right now, and this is me and
putting on my auntie and my auntie hat, which I'm
worried about the kids. I join you in my concern
because there there's so much more of them, their heart,

(20:50):
their spirit, their mind that is served up on a
platter to corporate gams, served up on a platter to
people in power who do not care about them and
do not have their best interests at heart and do
not have our collective best interests at heart. And whereas
that that has likely always been true, right, the kind
of capital class, the billionaires have always been trying to

(21:12):
figure out how to get more and more of us
on the market. Right, We literally come from people who
were sold in markets. Right. It's not that it's unheard
of or new, right that these that slavers are going
to that are going to try to slave, it's just
new the level of access and vulnerability, right, and being
exposed to all this that our kids have. And this

(21:33):
is not me railing against the internet. Lowkey it is,
but not really, it's me real algorithm because because our
children are it's just reinforcing whatever whatever they pick up,
it's just reinforcing that thing. So the whole gets deeper
and deeper and deeper, and the world gets smaller and
smaller and smaller. And if we're going to have a democracy,
if we're going to have a democracy, and that's an

(21:54):
open question for us right now, if we're going to
have a democracy in the future, it's gonna be because
our children grow up into adults and know how to
talk to each other. It's going to be because they
are in real life, in real conversations, learning real things
in a world that is in a reality that is
shared with other people, and they can make powerful and
informed decisions about it. And what we are seeing right

(22:17):
now is the real doubling down, the real acceleration of
a twisted creating, a twisted and warped and atomized understanding
of the world right where my world is different. My algorithm,
my feed shows my Google searches show me something different
that reinforce my biases, and it shows you to or

(22:37):
anybody else that does the same search, And that is
deeply concerning. So not quite, it's not quite an answer
about education, but just to say that, you know, again,
if we are going to have a democracy, part of
what is going to be required there is that we
have a shared to the facts, that we have a
shared social contract, that our young people know who they are,

(22:59):
who they can go rely on. What the answer to
is the Earth flat? It's an easy answer. That's an
easy answer. And why are there three hundred thousand Google
searches for that? There shouldn't be a Google responses for that.
It shouldn't be There's one answer to that. There's a
way in which in children believe the adults who came
before them, for better or for words, and the adults

(23:21):
who came before them, the ones who wish all of
us death and slavery, are in the pockets and feeding
off the eyeballs of our children, and they are confusing them.
And that's the thing that I think we have. You know,
we are not equipped to we are not currently equipped,
or if we are, we're not currently doing we need
to do in order to back right this like real

(23:44):
takeover of the psychosphere. Our children's minds and brains are
getting fed on by fools like Elon Musk right, people
who run corporations who are going to rename a body
of water the Gulf of America. No, baby, that's not it.
That's that's not it.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
You can't do that. You can't do that, girl, You
just can't do it. Yeah. I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Ugh.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
And I think what's even more alarming is the idea
that they're there. And I said this in a text
or actually in a meeting yesterday. I had said, you know,
we were talking about something local that's happening in my job.
For many of you who know I work for a
local LGBTU organization and what we had to put out

(24:25):
a statement, and in the statement, you know, someone in
my office was like, you know, someone in my orc
was like, you need to put some stats in there.
You know, John, I know you are very big on stats.
And I said, yeah, I said, but the hard part
about this work right now is that people don't believe
in research. And I said, there are a lot of
people who know that. They're like, these facts are out
there and that there's numbers to back those facts up.

(24:47):
And we still have youth, not even just adults, but
we have youth that are looking at the adults who
don't believe in this research and are saying, oh, this
is not real. And so that's also the alarming thing
for me. Right Whereas when I came up kind of
like hypothesis, and you know, you and then and then
and then you would test that hypothesis to see if
it was true, right, that was research. That was the

(25:08):
thing that you that we grew up doing, Right, is
this true? And now we have a whole bunch of
people saying, well, that's not a fact, and I'm like, no, baby,
there's numbers out there.

Speaker 5 (25:16):
It's angry, it's actually a fact, like that's yeah, actually,
why not you agree with and here and here's a
and here's what I'll say as an educator, I'll say this,
learning low key sucks, like you have to think a
thing and then be shown that the thing that you
were thinking is incorrect and to take in new information
like it's not a fun unless you're in the habit
of it. I have a whole master's degree. Learning shit

(25:37):
is not necessarily fun. I don't like I'm a areas
with the Leo Rising and the Stelium and Libra, so
I literally believe that I am right. I don't say
nothing unless I think I'm right about it. And then
I hope when I do it right, if I'm presented
with alternative and alternate information and I can take it in,
it feels reasonable. Okay, I'll move, but you're gonna have
to tell you I'm the proved of me that I
am not correct, you know. I mean, that's just like

(25:59):
it's just in me, is how I'm saying, and and
it is deeply uncomfortable. I also like it was I
was in college before I had my first black teacher
in college. Underground, Yeah, like I don't know that I've
ever had a queer teacher. I think I've been a
queer teacher for folks, but I don't know that I've
a queer teacher. No, sorry, I had missed myself.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
But she was an old lady.

Speaker 5 (26:24):
So it's just like there's a way in which, you know,
like learning is uncomfortable. We also know the ways in
which our school, our education system hates our children, hates
us and hates our children right pathologizes our communities, calls police.
Like there's just a way in which there's just a
way in which the education is uncomfortable to do. And
you have to be in a trusting relationship with someone

(26:46):
to learn something. You're not gonna you go call me
stupid or send me to detention, and then think I'm
gonna listen to you about a thing, a thing I
don't know you, lady, and you look like me, and
I don't like you, so why am I going to
believe it? And then the final point around research, it's like,
you know, shout out to John Dewey, the Dewey decibel system. Right,
for better or for worse, there was one source of

(27:06):
place like there was if you wanted to know a thing,
it would you would go to a book to learn it, right,
And so again not not meaning to applaud the gatekeepers, right,
who kept particular information out of books or who put
particular information in books, but again having a shared place
where we know what this thing is because it's in

(27:27):
this book, and we can argue about whether it is true,
or what the alternative information is or whetherre's whether there
should be some new research or whatever. You can argue
about that, but we all know what we're looking at. Meanwhile,
the algorithm is telling you that the earth is flat
because you've asked it three times and you it kind
of can tell that you want to know that earth
is flat versus versus what is really? What is real?
And what's true?

Speaker 2 (27:47):
So oh what is who?

Speaker 4 (27:51):
Y'all said a whole ass word there and really has
me thinking, like it's fascinating to know that, Like I
feel like growing like growing up, the ops around us
were all about show us the data, show us the research,
show us the facts, and then we and then we
get on the board to show them facts and then
they move the goal posts like well, actually, like we

(28:13):
want more like like we want more like quality of data,
and it's like, well, when we give you quality. Today
you didn't believe us and you said you want quantity
of data. Now you're quantity and now you're like, we
actually want what do you want?

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Do you know what?

Speaker 4 (28:27):
Like I mean like it's like.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Like you can't have both girls.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
But I think.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
You point about like people move the goalposts, and you know,
those who those who are the you know, the the
like the like the gatekeepers of power move like move
the goal moved the goalposts because the most the most fearful,
the most fearful thing for them are people who are smart,
are people who are people who are people who meet them,
who people who meet them, who meet what they're meet,

(28:57):
what they ask of them. And then they're like, oh ship,
like you actually give that, let me try and moving
again too.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
So it's just like that's just so so heartbreaking.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
I'm curious to ask you just like just like all
of the idea of you know, building trust and people
feeling safe for each other, and like in education, I
know that many queer people and families, especially people with
with with children, are concerning are they are thinking about
where they best feel safe and might receive the best education.
Now you know, we're seeing migration patterns from people in

(29:25):
midwestern states or in southern states to go more you know,
more west in some cases, more east, more north, and
you know, not not much more south, I think I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
So, I'm curious what advicement you have for someone who.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Might want to migrate from their home state to make
sure that their quer youth is getting a great education
and being not just good like authentic and factual based education.

Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, but this is such a hard it's a it's
such a hard moment to be in, right I am,
I should have to be the world's best auntie. I
don't have my baby as a fur baby. Her name
is Mojito. Marcus is her other her second middle name.
I'm not going to drop her last name because again,
not trying to put her whole out there for the people.

(30:11):
Are three of her names. She's got three more. And
here's what I would say. It's just like it's so hard,
like two things and they are definitely in tension with
each other. Right. One is that we listen my family.
I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio. My mom's family is there,
my dad's family is in Detroit. Neither one of them

(30:34):
before the generation of My grandparents were in either of
those cities, right, My family Cincinnati and Detroit, escaping white
terror and violence in the South. And so who am I?
Who are any of us to say don't move when
you need to go in order to ensure your life
and your dignity and you're safe, right, right, So that's
part one. Part two is that, oh, it's not actually

(30:59):
that Cincinnati or Detroit is a racial paradise, right, It's
not actually that the problems we're solved there. White supremacy
is a losing game and if you play it, you're
always gonna lose. And so there's a part of it
that's like, if we are gonna if the battle, if
we are in the battle, and let's take the battle
exactly right, we are right. If we can't, we will
be able to have only what we can build together,

(31:22):
and we'll be only well be able to keep only
what we can defend together. Right, And so so that's
like the big that's the big thing. Should you go
or should you not? You should you should do what
is what is aligned in your spirit and what you
understand is going to get you closer to being able
to live with safety and dignity. Period. That's all of us.
That's part one. Part two is you know, like everybody

(31:44):
ain't Ruby Bridges. Everybody ain't a person who's gonna be
on the front line, who's gonna put their five or
six or seven year old baby on the line to
go carve out some freedom for themselves and for the
people who come behind us. What all of us are
built for that, nor should are not, nor should all
of us be faced with that kind of choice. And
then the other thing I'll say is that you know,

(32:07):
part of this goes back to white supremacy is a
losing game, it's a deathicult is that there ain't no
freedom nowhere except for what we are able to build
and create together. Right, And so it's just like maybe
maybe the choice is from frying pan into fire, and
that's a legitimate choice. And unless we are pulling the
thing up by the root, we're going to continue to

(32:29):
get the We're gonna get continue to get the fruit
right of this, of this poisonous plant. And so that's
this is the worth that Glisten does, right. The worth
that Glisten does is trying to remove that individual burden
from every person who has a child who is in
a school. We're trying to move that decision point from
individual choice, which is heart wrenching, terrifying. People are limited

(32:54):
by their you know ability, you know, economic ability, you know,
lay or mobility. Who can who can move right from
Texas to Maryland? Right? Or who can move from you know,
Kansas to I don't know, Virginia, that one little place
in Virginia that you might feel like you're fine, Right,
there's just like it's just so deeply unfair and unright

(33:16):
and so deeply exclusive. Right. Privilege, privilege, it's a double
edged sword. It's a privilege to be able to be
able to get up and move to somewhere else, right,
And even that is an uprooting of everything you know
and your life and moving into some other context that
you don't actually know as much about. So when we

(33:37):
think about the continuity of what our people in our
communities deserve, our communities are marred with Our history is
marred with the fact that we've had to get up
and move and move. So where are those pictures from
the first time that people took pictures way back in
the day, and my family we don't have them, right,
We might have a might have one little artifact that
someone's grandma hang hung on to through hello high water

(33:59):
and who knows where it is right now, somebody's granny
hung onto this stuff. Right, So it's just like what
we are. The challenge is that we are faced with
impossible individual choices when actually it's a systemic failure. And
that's what Glisten does, right. We try to address the
systemic failure so that we are able to lift up

(34:19):
these impossible choices and put them where they belong. Put
them on the school system. How about you don't do
disproportionate exclusionary discipline with LGBTQ plus kids, right, who are ones?
When they're not white and able body and neurotypical and
you know systender presenting, they're difficult, right, It's like no, No,

(34:41):
you could figure out we're the richest country and the
history of the planet. You can figure out actually how
to feed everybody if you wanted to, particularly at schools.
You can figure out how actually how to educate everyone
if you just took the time and if you cared
about them and saw them for who they were and
understood that the purpose of the education system is to
ensure that every child gets education. I mean imagine.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, yeah, I you there was a point that you
had made, and I was gonna I was gonna tack
on something to that. I think the biggest thing that
is really scary is how much, you know, you've talked
a lot about this idea of slavery and the enslavement
of our people, how that's still manifests in education. And

(35:25):
I think that's the thing that has been scaring me
the most, right, is that even in twenty twenty five,
the way our educational system is set up, right, so
even the idea, like you know, talking about detention and
trust and all of that, going back to your main point, like,
it's just it's really scary. It's really scary to think
about the ways that slavery, even even in the ways

(35:48):
that we operate and how we move, is still present. Right,
This idea of having to just uproot your whole family
and just say I'm out of here, I gotta go,
and then taking them to a place that they have
no idea and could but it still faces the same
thing that they're trying to get away from.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
And that's what I tell people.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
You know, I get a lot of flat from people
when people ask me, well, John you know, cause I
talk about how expensive California is, and we all know,
like right now, the cost of everywhere in southern in
California general, it's astronomical. And people will say, well, John,
why don't you know you you make good money. Why
don't you just leave? And I say, I don't leave
because I understand the racism where I live, like I

(36:27):
can comprehend. No, I really do, like going, like, right now,
I'm in a state and you know, everyone knows that
I'm on the road right now. You know, I'm in
a state right now where it's like I don't know
what racism looks like in Wichita, Kansas. I don't know
what racism looks like in Chicago. I don't know what
racism looks like in New York or Brooklyn, right, And
so to take my whole life and move it out

(36:48):
there as a black, queer, fat, non binary body, I'm
putting myself at risk. And so yes, like when you
talk about it's a privilege to move, like even it's
not just the money, it's not just the idea of
saying I have the means. It's this idea that it's
a luxury to be able to move to a new
place and not have to consider how how well my

(37:09):
child is going to be educated, or if my child
is going to be experienced, you know, if if my
you know, because again, I have a friend right now
who literally has been in and out of her school
with her because her child keeps being called a nigger,
and she's that that is literally a thing that has
been happening to her. She's literally at school almost every
other day because she's having to battle these kids. And

(37:30):
so I just I keep thinking about all that, and
I know we can talk for hours about this, so
I know I got to get to the next question
I did want to ask you. You know, we talked
a lot about data. We've talked about a lot about Obviously.
I love how you can I love the way I
can listen to you talk forever, but thinking.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Don't I don't don't get, don't get.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
My name is bid it and I ain't in it.
But I will say this, I do love listening to you.
And one of the questions that I did have for
you is, you know, thinking about you know, the data,
thinking about where where we are as the country, thinking
about all the you know, scary really kind of just
things that that are super uncomfortable right now as we

(38:21):
think about education, I would love to know how many
students like one, how many students did you think you
serve for your org? And how often your your resources
are utilized? And and and in terms of them being utilized,
why is it so important that orgs like Listen exists
in this moment?

Speaker 5 (38:41):
Yeah? So, where the where the data girlies? And it's
been it's been a long time. We were found in
nineteen ninety We did our first national School Climate survey
in nineteen ninety nine. I was still in high school
ninety ninet nine. I graduated year two year two thousand.
Uh did you know, I don't know if you know.
The millennium is coming and we were at the we
were at the cutting edge of the millennium. Ok, yeah,

(39:03):
why pay down?

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Why Too Gay? So?

Speaker 1 (39:09):
I think I'm a titled episode that why Too Gay?

Speaker 5 (39:15):
So? So we're the data girlies, right, So, anything you
know about what it's like to be gay and in
a in a US school, you know from US and
the CDC and the cd build it from US. Right. So, Youth,
the Youth Risk Behavioral Survey y RBS is a really
great survey that's been done for many years by the

(39:37):
Center for Disease Control CDC. It talks about like youth
risk behavior, that's what that's what it's about, and that's
young people generally speaking. Anything you know about young people
in high in schools. You know, because of Listen and
other people have come into that in the research space,
there is there. The problem is bigger than any one
of us or anyone organization can solve. And so I
welcome other more folks doing really good, important work, particularly

(40:01):
research about our kids. But what we know is that
it's terrible to be gay in schools, right, It's territorble
to be to be a young person that's made to
go to schools and be facing the over and over
and over discrimination, harassment. You know, we think about bullying, right,

(40:23):
we talk about bullying. Yeah, And it's that's such a euphemism, right,
It's such an euphemism because truly what this is is harassment,
persistent harassment, physical, emotional, intellectual harassment in a place that
our children are required to be at from ages five
to eighteen. Yeah, and this is you know, this is

(40:47):
about this is about breaking our children. It's about breaking
their spirit, right, And that's low key what education is about? Right,
Like I said, it's deeply uncomfortable, pretty inconvenient when you
want to when you want to be right about things,
say that from my soul. But it's but when you
are being when you have to be brought into a
new understanding of yourself and the world. My God, let

(41:08):
that information be true, right, Let that information be true.
Let me not be inundated. Let me not be groomed
into information as not true about me or the people
I come from. How dare any of us and I
have be honest with you? I forgot the question, so
you can tell me the question.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Well, we were just wondering. No, no, no, I understand. I
mean I think you're in a way you've answered kind
of you answer our question.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
But I was gonna.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Say, like, I think I would love to recenter the
question on so you talk specifically about this idea of
our youth being bullied or youth going to school and
not being comfortable in school. And I guess kind of
wanting to think about, like the work that you're doing,
how do we make sure that how does your org
or or that you're working in, you know, in connection

(41:54):
with how are we making sure that we're keeping the
babies protected in a space where they're.

Speaker 5 (42:00):
Yeah, appreciate the question, and I'm a focus on it
at this time.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
That's okay.

Speaker 5 (42:04):
So at Glisten, we work with young people, right. We
have the National School National Student Council that is about
twenty twenty five young people per year that we kind
of call our young people. We put them, we pull
them into a national program, et cetera. Those young people
are fed into our national program from local from local
through local chapters. We've got twenty three chapters around the country,

(42:27):
mainly in the South, mainly in the Midwest. With a
couple of outfires, like Philly is doing is doing their thing,
Oregon is doing their thing, Los Angeles is doing their thing,
both of the coasts. But really besides those three, everybody
else is in the middle of the country for the
most part. And so you know, so so that's part
that's that's part two, right, So we do our youth
work through in that way, both through like local engagements

(42:50):
through our chapters and local supports and communities, and then
there's a way and for those young people to kind
of funnel up into the national program. We also you know, listen,
if you know this, and you know that we particularly
support educators and we looked because we are focused on
a system's intervention for systems transformation again, because I want

(43:11):
the terrible, horrible, really impossible choice you that a parent
has to make or a kid has to make when
they are facing an impossible school situation. I want there
to be a systemic resolution to that, so it's not
on the individual to make all these impossible choice at
the individual level. So we really focus on educator and

(43:32):
education systems engagement. Right. We want to give the teachers,
the administrators, the local education agency leaders, the state education
agency leaders. The time that's at across the table on
a regular basis from the former Secretary of Education Rights,
we're talking about us transform the system so that individuals
don't have to deal with impossible situations. To your question

(43:53):
about data and numbers, we our Rainbow Library program reaches
over six million young people right in school. So it's
a set of and this is redundant to say because
it's created by educators, and educators know what is developmentally
appropriate because they go to school for it. But these
are developmentally appropriate of educational materials, literature materials that are

(44:16):
sent out for free at no cost to the educator
or to the library, and we've sent those out to
thousands of librarians and educators, reaching thousands of schools, reaching
over six million young people are reached by our Rainbow
Library program. That's one two educators download materials from our sites.
We have curriculum guides, we've got in class resources, we've

(44:39):
got how do you start a BSA, We've got all
the things. We're the information girlies, and those are downloaded
over half a million times a year. And our resources
over all those are specifically like classroom resources half million
times a year, and then over all our resources, all
the things that we have are download at one point
five million times a year. So we've got The thing

(45:00):
about Listen is that we've been around for a long
time and we are quiet and doing the work I
like to I say to my team, we're like the
lesbian with the lanyard, right, We're like the lady who
like we just like it's we. We got all the keys,
we know all the people. What you need, baby, what
you need. I don't think you need to get in.
There's no hang on jingle jingle jangle jangle jingle. He

(45:21):
let you in by by Honey be great, right, Like,
that's who we've been for a long time, and I
think that we can we can do what we do better,
we can do what we do in a different way.
But just to say that the place that we come
from is a place of let me get you the
materials you need, let me trust you as an educator,
let me know, let me know what you need from
us that we could be doing better or more of,

(45:42):
and we're going to try to meet that need. So
that's I right, that's what we do.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, I love it, And I love when you know
you you mentioned the point about being you know, kind
of a quiet organization. I think, you know, I always
think that there's a true belief that those who make
the most noise make the most change. And I don't
necessarily know if that's the truth. You know, it's important
to have noisemakers in this work. But I definitely appreciate
that y'all are doing the work. And like I said,

(46:08):
the Rainbow Library is something that I didn't even know about,
and I work for a quare organization, and so I
definitely love that that exists, and I'm really happy. I'm
really I'm just really thankful for the work that you're doing.
And I don't necessarily know if you get thanked enough
for the work you're doing, because I think of this work,
especially when I say this work like even down to

(46:28):
us setting up to do an educational like you know
episode per se Right, no one's gonna come back and
say thank you John, thank you Joho for you know,
doing that, and so a lot of this is very thankless.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
But I think as.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Somebody who knows how hard this work is in the
state that we are all in and around education, I
just wanted to say thank you for the work you're doing.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
Okay, fam, now that we have placed the fear of God,
whatever y'all be rocking with or get whatever you believe
in in you.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Around you know, the state of our state's education.

Speaker 4 (46:59):
The time we got to a quick break and revisits
something that we ain't been in for a minute, we're
back and it just said, okay, we are black, FAMI,
And I want to first just say money.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
I just want to coach.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
John's a sentiment in the last segment like the work
you do is so interesting and so cool because because
I've always like like like like like listen is not
is not such a like a forward facing like.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Like the organization that way. And I've I've went always
wondered like what exactly like what like what does happen here?

Speaker 4 (47:35):
And like so like hearing like all the all the
backgrounds off is so it's so amazing and so cool
because truthfully, like you actually done a lot of work
that like that like is what set has what's set
that has is will English is hard today, that is
what has set us up to like succeed with our
kids in school today that like we never have known.
And so it's such a gift to have you on
the show today and such a gift you speak and

(47:57):
like and I and everything you're saying, like everything you're
saying just so like wow, just wow. So thank you
very much for your time and being with us today
this week's segment. We want to stay in line with
taking care of our gabies and you know I, you
know I like as mentioned earlier, the number of issues
that queer kids are dealing with he continues to rise
every day, and so a lot of the issues are

(48:19):
surrounded mental health. And so I'm gonna ask you thoughts
or advice that you might you might give to you
to ah to a baby who might be listening to
to the show, who are worried about their future, particularly
those who many you know, many who are graduating and
ready to go to college, where this administration is working
entirely take their access away.

Speaker 5 (48:39):
You know, we I'm an elder millennial, so I got
I keep saying that I was.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
I was like, Okay, let us.

Speaker 5 (48:47):
Know the elder and so again, I'm gonna say this,
and I don't and I don't think it will resonate
for for a number of people younger than me and
the millennial cohort, even young folks, younger and younger generations.
It's that I come from people who never trusted the government.
I come from people who always understood that the people

(49:10):
in power were working against our freedom and our life
and our dignity. And I am so sad that two
things that one what we are hope and our desire
to make change had been has been so deeply co
opted and bastardized through the current two party system and

(49:31):
through the current family mechanisms of our government. Like it's
a democracy is but people. The people who belong in
a democracy are the people in a democracy. And here
we are and we come from a legacy of people
who have been trying to make this country worth the dam.
And the work continues on that. And even as the
work continues, babies, we have to understand that these people

(49:53):
ain't for us. We are for us. Find your people
who are for you, and go in and find them,
and and that's where you find safety, That's where you
find support, that's where you find affirmation. Don't go after
these in these in these people's places want them to
love you. Don't do that because they don't. They won't,
and they will. They will lead you around, they will
drive you from yourself looking to get their love and

(50:17):
affection and attention. And don't do it. Don't do it.
It's a it's a it's a racket. That's one thing
I would say. It's like, do not be fooled and
do not And they listen, these hoes ain't loyal and
we should and we are the hoes. We should not
be loyal. We are loyal to our people. We are
not loyal to these corporations, for these institutions or these leaders. No,

(50:38):
I'm an interest, never any permanent friends. So Chris, Part
one and part two is like again, and this I'm saying,
this is a person with a master's degree. It's just
like this is not You are never going to be
So you're never going to reach enlightenment through education. You're
gonna We're going to reach enlightenment through work. And you're

(50:59):
with your self and with your people looking for and
finding and building love and community. That's where we find
our piece, That's where we find our Let's do that.
And I'm not saying we should be small. We should
do that. Big, should that real big. I lead a
whole organization, a whole national organization, and it's while it's
not my political project, while it's not a place that

(51:20):
reflects my all of my values, it's not a place
for me to put my values into my my specific
political point of view into action. That's not what I
do in my job at my organization, right. I work
for the mission at my organization. So we don't we
bring our best selves to this work and bring your
best selves, build people around you that have your best

(51:41):
interests at heart. And when people you understand that people
don't want you to win, or you understand that people
don't love you or aren't for you, keep it pushing,
keep it pushing. That's so, that's what I would say. So, like,
is college is college route? Maybe it's trades cooled a route.
Maybe I know that whatever you can do to earn
a living that lets you hold on to your dignity,

(52:04):
let you work for a little bit and lets you
not work for a little bit, like the that's the goal,
right I have. I come from a sink. My mother
raised me as a single parent by choice, and she
loves her work. She's brilliant. My mom is super brilliant.
She's eighty three now, super brilliant, really smart, has done incredible,
amazing things. She's a Capricorn. And listen if I talked
about how my love Language is being read for filmed

(52:26):
by black women and it's low key because I like
my first performance review when I was like three, so
like you know, so it's like shout out to shout
out to people who do the impossible stuff and who
give their life to the work for the movement and
for a community. And then I also have a cousin.
My mom's my mom's first cousin, so she's my second cousin.
Also my mom same age baby. She went to work,

(52:46):
she did her thing, and she left and she went
to go play bridge, and she went to barbecues, and
she wasn't gonna let these white people drive her crazy.
Both these ways of being in this world are totally
totally valid. So we don't actually have to give our
selves away. And to the extent that you don't have
anything left for yourself or your loved ones kids, if

(53:07):
you have a family, if you've got them, booze and bays,
if you got them, then you're giving too much. You're
doing too much. Dial it back, do something else, do
do less right. We are not all bridges, we are
not all meant to. I think the time for martyrs
is over. I think the time for us to die
on our sword is over. It's time for us to live.
We've got to again. We can only build what we

(53:28):
can do together, and we can we can defend together.
And so we got it. We have to be oriented
in that way.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
I think, yeah, man, maybe you said a whole work
and you're also speaking to me because you know I
will say this on the air. You know, I've really
been thinking about, you know, do I want to go
back to you know, corporate? Do I want to go
back to education? And do I want to do this,
and do I want to do that? And you know,
I really appreciate you saying only be in places where

(53:55):
you feel like you can be celebrated, because I think
that's a big part of the difference.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Right, or make a difference.

Speaker 5 (54:02):
Listen, I've been and listen for six years. I was
fighting for my life there for the first several Right,
And so it's like people, I'm not and I'm not.
I don't come to work and I'm not saying this
about you but necessarily, but it's just to say that,
like I don't come to work to be celebrated. I
come to work to do my thing and then I
and then I don't have my people to be celebrated.
To your point, right, it's just like we can't like,
let's not look at the in the wrong places. For

(54:24):
the things that we need. We have to look go
to the aisle and the grocery store where that thing
is to find the toilet paper. I can't go to
the progress market and wonder where the toilet paper is.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Right, right, No, I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I think when I say celebrated, what I mean is
where you don't spend your whole time fighting that's right,
you know, your whole you want to be at a
place where you genuinely want someone to see your education,
what you bring to the table, what experience you bring,
what knowledge you bring, and say we need that here
and we want to make a difference with that information.
And I think that's what I was getting at and

(54:56):
and and so I think to your point, Melanie, you know,
I don't want us to purport ourselves to be a
doctor phil where we're pretending to give out, you know, information,
you know. But I think the baby see us, and
I think they look at us. They look at this show,
they look at my book, they read our articles, you know,
they look at us as you know, the legions of
folks who came before them. And we've all dealt with

(55:18):
hard things, and I think a lot of us are,
in a lot of ways the blueprint for them. And
I think the biggest thing that I'm taking away not
only from you in this segment, but also thinking about,
you know, what advice i'd give to a baby right
now who's looking around, going this shit is bonkers. You know,
I think it is really imperative for them to recognize
that the thing I want them to strive for and

(55:39):
whatever and whatever that means.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Right.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
So, like, I keep thinking to myself right right now,
the way that I work, the space that I'm in,
the way that I can do my work right from
the book to the pod to the being on different
shows and all that, that's an element of freedom for
me to be able to help uplift other people.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Right.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
The work we're doing is freedom work. And I I
love your point about this idea of not being a
martyr because I think people think you have to be
out in the street fighting against the police in order
to make a difference. And it's like, yes, there are
people who want to do that, but you don't have.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
You can do freedom work however you decide you want
to do freedom work. And you can also make change
however you want to make change. And so I think
it is impairtive that you know, and I'm gonna talk
about a little bit later, but you know, haters are
going to always be there. Haters will always hate because
they hate the idea of us being free ass people.

(56:31):
And I want our babies to see us and say
they're free ass people. I want to be free too,
and so that's my most important piece to give away
to the babies is I really want them to keep
fighting for freedom and whatever feels good for them. Yeah.
But anyway, babies, like I said, keep being free. And

(56:51):
so with that being said, we won't be free if
we don't pay these bills.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
So we got to take on more.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Break and when we give back, we are going to
be here with y'all favorite segment, yes ma'am and no
man Pam will be back. S all right, y'all, So
we are back with the with our last segment of
the episode, which is our yes maam and I know
man pamman. This is when we either celebrate people and

(57:20):
we give them flowers or we throw them at them.
And so this week my yes ma'am for this week,
I wanted to say, you know anyone who was playing
the same petty, stupid game that the folks on the
right are playing. And so with that being said, I
don't know if any of you have seen specifically I'm
gonna be talking about Harvard. I don't know if any

(57:40):
of you have been keeping up with the Harvard and
the right kind of back and forth that's been happening
with them, But there it was, I'm really not. I
don't even know the lady's name. I'm not gonna even
say her name because I don't like the lady. I
think she's dumb. But and I say dumb, not in
the sense of, you know, this idea of education being
kind of like, because I think we often prop up

(58:02):
people who have education as being smart people. And I
know a lot of smart people with a lot of
I know a lot of dumb people with high education.
So I want to make sure that I say that.
So I want to make this person is just dumb
because they're dumb. And with that being said, this person
sent a very threatening letter to Harvard, basically talking about
all of the things that they plan to do or

(58:23):
things the ways that they were going to make Harvard
very hard to operate, you know, because I guess word
on the curb and I and I don't know how
true this is. So listeners, if I'm lying, y'all could
come in and correct me. I just want to make
that very clear that I'm just going off with what
I think I know. I guess they're mad. The right
is mad, or I say specifically, that cabinet that is

(58:44):
in office, the person who's running that cabinet is mad
that their son didn't get into the school that they
wanted them to get into, which was Harvard.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
So this person sends.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Them a very threatening letter, and I just love the
way of how again. I don't want to uplift Harvard
and these institutions, but but I love a petty girl.
Mama took that letter, like, marked it up and read
and read. I don't know if y'all saw, but it's
marked up and read. They re scanned the letter and

(59:15):
emailed it back to her and basically said, you need
to get.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Your grammar.

Speaker 4 (59:24):
If you'll come to Harvard, girl, come grathtly correct.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
I said, I love a petty bitch, because that's something
that I would do. I have literally been I've had
people send really terrible things to me, and I have
literally responded with your The email you just sent.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Me is grammatically uncorrect.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
So if you're going to send terrible things to me,
please make sure that you're taking the time to read
the email back to yourself before you send it to
me an actual doctor.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
So I love that. I love that. I love it.
I love it.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
So I want to give I don't want to give
credit to Harvard, But I want to give credit to
whoever thought of doing that in the office. I love
you And if if you, if you buy chance, listen
to this show, send me your email.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
I would love to buy you lunch. I just want
to buy you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
I just want to send you a twenty five dollar
ador Dash gift card or something just for being my
type of people. Anyway, this is the type of petty
I live for now. I know, man, Pam, real quick,
I definitely want to say this. So I was at
Disneyland a couple of weeks ago and I saw a
woman wearing a Maga hot A hat and I literally
just I just want to say this, are you stupid

(01:00:33):
or are you dumb? Because ma'am, do you realize that
these people are working to take away every single rite
that you have as a woman, and and it just
doesn't make this like I don't comprehend it. I don't
understand it, like I don't know, like what's not And
I understand why you're wearing the hat sys like I
get it. You you want to tell me as a

(01:00:55):
black person, you don't see it for me, And that's cool,
you don't have to. But I'm but but but the
thing is, it's like, but Sis, you are also not
who like they're not fighting for you, girl. They're they're
taking all your they're going to take They're working actively
to take all your right space. I just want to
say to the women, like, I don't know if you
saw that clip on TikTok of the older lady who

(01:01:16):
knocked the maga ha maga hat off of the lady
coming down to escalator and she was like, get your
shit together. She was like, you look stupid. That's how
I feel. You look stupid, Sis, Like you look dumb,
You look real dumb. I also want to add, and
I say this in like Kiki Palmer voice, I don't
mean to sound ridiculous. I hope I don't sound ridiculous.

(01:01:38):
I don't know who this man is. I hate to
say it. I hate to say it, but I don't
know who this man is. He can be walking down
the street and I wouldn't sorry to this man. I'm
gonna say sorry to this food. Y'all have been telling
me for weeks that Chicago has the best food, and

(01:01:58):
I can't. I can't believe you. I can't, I can't,
I cannot believe you. I just can't the pizza that
I had. I know, I Baby Paul Miles. I know
y'all listened to the show. Y'all went to dinner with me.
Y'all took me to that pizza place. Baby, The pizza
was a pizza. Y'all told me that the hot dog

(01:02:18):
would be good. I ordered a hot dog.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
It was not good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
I where where is the good food? Y'all promised me.
Don't argue And if you want to email me and
you want to argue with me, argue with the Republican
I'm not doing that with Y'a'm not gonna go back
and forth. I just want to say, I don't think
that the food in Chicago was as good as y'all and.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Might be good because you live there, but they don't.
That's all I got, Melanie, What are yours?

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
All?

Speaker 5 (01:02:48):
Right? So, so my yes, ma'am, is my Bessie, my sister.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
My Ace.

Speaker 5 (01:02:54):
Latifa Simon from California's twelfth Congressional District is repping shot
as record Shop in Congress. She is moving in the
footsteps of my forever representative Barbara Lee and the spirit
fire of Shirley Chisholm. She's been my sister and my
boss since two thousand and four. She can call me
up right now and tell me to do something, and
I'm like, Okay, I might talk back a little bit,

(01:03:16):
but I'm gonna do it. And what what I know
about her is that she is bringing heart and rigor
and brilliance to the work in service of her people,
in service of art people. And I get to see
that in real time over the last twenty one years
of our friendship, and I get to see it. We
all now get to see it with her snatching wigs

(01:03:38):
in Congress, And so I'm just so proud of her,
and I just and just a warning. If you find
yourself on the on the sharp end of an anecdote
from her, baby, you are in trouble because she's reading
me for bilth. Don't let her tell you about how
she rode the bus to take her baby to school.
Don't let her tell you about how she has paid
a medical bill because her husband has passed away, passed
away from cancers. Like It's like, if you are you

(01:03:58):
are in trouble, if you are on the receiving in
an anecdote from her, because she she is coming for
your for your edges. So that's why. So that's my yes, ma'am.
And listen, I mean I think I kind of said
it earlier. So I'm just gonna go back to what
I said previously, which is like my no, man, Pam
is like, stop listening. Stop looking for love in these
in these institutions, Stop looking for validation from people who

(01:04:21):
are who don't have your best interests at heart. You know,
just don't do it, don't you know. My mom would say,
my grandma would say, stop trying to get these white
people to love you. And it's like, so there's a
way in which it's like it's beyond like not just
white people, it's everybody. But really to say that, like
you know, like there are people who are for you
and the people who are not for you, and no man,
Pam to like seeking validation for the people who are
not for you. That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
M oof.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Okay, you said, you said what you said, and I
wish you when you write, I wish you when you
write what about you?

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
So my thoughts here, So when I join you John
in not like not like plus winning Harvard itself, but
like end of the day, you know, there's a message
to be sent about the richest institution going against the government, right,
and I do live for the kind of petty you know,
and I will I will give them. Is like through
all its flaws as a you know institution that obviously

(01:05:20):
it's a capitalists that also you know, prides itself on elitalism.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
They know they can take the hit. And I appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
They said, we can take the hit, like you wanna
do you wanna do you wanna pull our funding? We
can get the hit and we're gonna sit against you
and I and I and I love it. Now, it's
it's it's it's also a gamble because if they bend
the knee like that looks bad for every university, then
like around it. So it's it's like it's like it's

(01:05:49):
like they're frying a good fine now. But I am worried,
but I appreciate that they are putting their money with
their mouths where where their mouths are.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Now, I was like, no, I can respect it. I
can respect it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
And then my other, my other, yes, ma'am, you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Want perfect.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
Take her sip and drink hit, Yes, yes, yes, the hams,
Oh my god, the shoe will you fantastic fantastic Megan him,
it was so fun this show.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
This show was for the girls.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
This show was for because that song where she's like
I do it for the games now, and I was
and I was like, oh, she means the games.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
And the game she wanted the trans flag.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
I said, Oh, that show was everything I live like
and like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Like, I'm someone who wants a show where I'm like
where I'm like deeply moved.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
I'm like crying, like this is the this show is
this this is a fun show. Like you don't leave
it like like I'm so like inters like this was
a fucking key. It was so good New York. You
owe me nothing you own? Yeah, nothing, I will happen.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Now, question for you real quick before we before we
go into your no, ma'am did so when I saw it,
the little thing that the potion thing when it came.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Up for Michelle ours didn't come up.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
In time for her, and so you could see her
looking and she was like, oops, when the little thing
didn't come up on time for her.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Okay, good, I'm not I'm not I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
I'm not gonna bad mouth Michelle the Bridge Williams. That's
my girl. But we with with the best of them.
Oh my god, just was so so fucking good. Megan
Healthy was hilarious. She everstod was hilarious, like such a
good show. New York's me nothing. I was here, I'm
here for a week. I'm sad to leave, although I
missed my bed. Traveling is exhausting, y'all. But like, but
on Monday, on Memorial Day, it was the most beautiful

(01:07:52):
day I've ever seen. It was like seventy two, perfectly crisp,
not like not not not single cloud in sight, little breeze,
not too hot, not too cool. Like people were see
Melanie is nodding, because people were kind, people were nice,
people were kind. No one was like no one was
like move out the way. No one was like, oh
I'm walking here. Everyone was living their best. Everyone's out

(01:08:15):
here in New York. The energy in New York that
day was pure magic.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Everyone was but they were also off work, so yeah, yes.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
Yeah, but yes, but but but like a vacation day
and a good weather day in this city, because like
everyone was like, this is this is not this is
not like this is not like a common thing. Like
everyone was out. It was just it was amazing. It's
been a such a basing tripscho Yes, ma'am, Pam to
New York itself with a glorious place. I spent a

(01:08:44):
lot of time in the city, a little bit in
Brooklyn next time. Next time, I was Sam Brooklyn. I'm
gonna do Harlem. I'm gonna do brons, do queens like
I'm gonna get myself around because I know that's where
like the good stuff really is. I was just being
a city girl this time. I mean it was really cute.
It was overwhelming. So I'm trying, you know, I want
to see some bedside movement. I want, you know, like
I want, I want to the more black areas. But

(01:09:04):
I will end my time give me some bomb ass
dim sum and some dumplings here in Chinatown, so it's
gonna be amazing my No, man, Pam, I'm also trying
to think about this. It's just been such a good week.
They can't really can't think of it, you know what,
I will say, no man, Pam, to to to the
rats I have.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
I was gonna ask you have you seen any rats?
I see?

Speaker 5 (01:09:27):
I got that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
Motherfuckers a huge just ship. I don't know what is
in the water, what's in the sewers. But the motherfuckers
are here.

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
Being havingiation therapy. Girl, because them things literally, Girl, tell
me why. I was walking broad daylight walking down the
street up to me, pause out, I said, oh, it's
trying to squabble up, I said, now I sitting on
his hind legs.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
I think I mean like I was crazy. I said,
oh that that that'sh not past.

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):
Is why I'm getting from this from this little I said,
my bad girl, this is your street, not mine.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm across the street.
Scared me, I said, I look a ride, but I
gues said, hey, big ride.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
It was why can I ask you a question? Have
you seen that meme or that video on that That's
what this reminds me of. There's this girl standing on
her porch and there's a squirrel on her porch and
she's screaming and she's like, this is ugly ass squirrel
is on my porch and the squirrel takes his head
and it puts me like who me?

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
And she's like, yeah, you bitch. That's what that reminds me.
Looking at what's the problem here?

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
I want to stop off that why in front of me,
looked to look me in my eyes. I said, hind legs,
chest pump. I said, my bay row washing me and
walked away. I said, this is your corner.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
You you can have, you can have.

Speaker 5 (01:10:55):
You do your thing, Girl new York who that was
your application being reviewed by the mayor. That's actually the
mayor like you failed your application. You have to think about.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
You moved. No, you're too nice to be here. You
gotta go, girl.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
New Yorker.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
She said, absolutely not. Yeah, you are not a native
New Yorker. Absolutely not. Let me tell you, I will
never forget the time my friend Darryl, my god, she
took me down. So I've only ever been on those
trains twice because I said I refuse because of the

(01:11:42):
rats and my my first time going down there to
get on the train. As I'm coming down the platform,
a rat rant I said, no, I see say.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
No, they were on the trains, they were looking there,
they were next to me on my on my morning walk.
It's their home, not they.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
Be on their way to the office to like, bitch.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
Move, get the fun up on my house.

Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
It's called a rat race for a reason.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
That is why it is called race.

Speaker 5 (01:12:19):
Absolutely New York is called a rat race for.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
What you girl?

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
No, no, him and his kids, they all could go
to hell. I don't want to do it. Y'all can
have it, n y C. Friends.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
I love y'all, listeners, y'all are the best people. I
love y'all house down booth. But y'all can have them rats.
Absolutely not anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
Okay, people in your y'all really are built different. I
have I have been like, are y'all built different? No,
y'all built different? Because also I'm a leisurely walker. Okay,
mother fucker's out here. You got you gotta put some
pep in your stuff. And I think I have a
que little struck when I walk, and I do, but
I guess, I guess my strut is allegedly struck.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Could people you got you gotta move, girl, you gotta move, babes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
You gotta push it, you gotta go.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
I'm just trying to take in the views.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
I learned, right, listen, I learned my lesson.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
Me and Jonathan were downtown looking we were where were
what they called that down in the square?

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
What is about Times Square?

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
And I had all some balencia August thinking I was
cute and the way that they was pushing through me,
like girl, if you don't move, I was like, oh,
this ain't something.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
My feet were hurting and I was like, no, exactly,
they don't. There's no time to be cute. You got
to move.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
But with that being said, we've got to move our
show because we have definitely gone over time. Please send
us your thoughts, your feedback and emails to Blackfatfempod at
gmail dot com. You can also send us your thoughts
via social media by interacting with their posts on Instagram
and Twitter by using her hand No Black Fatfempod and
I have to tell people you have to spell black
b l K because Instagram they played in our face

(01:13:54):
and they wouldn't let us write the whole black. So
with that being said, Melanie, where can the dolls find you?

Speaker 5 (01:14:00):
Y'all should go to g listen dot org slash rise up,
take the Rise Up pledge, sign your name. We asked
for your name and your zip code so we can
put a pin on the map where you have said
you are down to stand up and rise up for
l G B T Q plus you. So go there
listen dot org slash rise Up. You can follow Listen

(01:14:20):
on Instagram. My friends follow me on Instagram, and if
I don't know you, then you should follow somebody that
you do know and streets. I'd be happy to I'd
be happy to connect.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
And when I come back and Black Melanie, tell me
what's good? What's good here? Please?

Speaker 5 (01:14:43):
Oh my gosh, let me give you, Let me give
you the a tour from somebody?

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):
Are you? Are you in New York?

Speaker 5 (01:14:50):
War It's the place that Billy Holliday came and did
her did her stuff. Is where Ja Growin is from from,
is where Audrey Lord is from from. So no, Brooklyn
is cute. No respect, you know, respects a lot of respect,
a lot of respects, a lot. We love the boroughs,

(01:15:13):
but Harlem is the main respect. It's where my heart lives.
Is where I live too. So thank you all so
much for having me. I really appreciate the time to
talk with you all and look forward to seeing you
on down streets.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
I know that's right. Queen Jojo, Where can the dolls
find you?

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
Baby? You can find me at Joho Daniel's. Across all
socials you might find me.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
I might work around and say Joho and m C
from now on, because it really is calling my name,
I wont say Jordanes dot com. If not there, you
will find me crying because I missed the bagels.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
I miss heard bagels here.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
Oh my god, some grass bagels. And i'm'm a missing bagels.
I'm a miss.

Speaker 4 (01:15:54):
I'm a miss Central Park. You'll you'll find me in
a ditch just saw bring my eyes out, being like
I want to go back to New York so a
bad please. And then someone's like, go in July when
I's hot and you won't, and I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Like, okay, tee, or when it snows because I know
it gets cold out there.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
And also I have I'm gonna have a fall home here,
you know, I'm gonna from October and just say for
the month, and then I scoot all my back afterwards.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
Yeah yeah, yeah. Call you what they called snowbird? Call
you a snowburst? Did you fly? Back and forth?

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
With that being said, I also want to say I
still to this day don't remember the name of this place,
but I y'all know that I'm a donut connoisseur. I
had the best donut of my life when I was
staying in Brooklyn. I don't know the name of that place,
but if y'all do, or if y'all can think of it,
it was a peanut butter and jelly donut. When I
tell you that, I ascended to another level when I

(01:16:52):
ate that donut. It was the best don't I ever
had in my life. Yes, it was absolutely beautiful anyway.
But as for me and mine, you can find me
a ww dot doctor John Paul dot com. I want
to say, please keep going to the website. Also go
to Barnes and Noble wherever else. Keep running that book up.
We have officially hit the three k mark, which is

(01:17:13):
a big deal for a first time author. So if
y'all could just keep running that book up, I definitely
love y'all. That will definitely help me with the second
one that I'm getting ready to start working on. In
the next couple that I am putting together for my
second one. With that being said, thank you for everybody
who has supported me. Thank you for everybody who came
out to the Chicago to the Chicago book launch. It

(01:17:35):
was absolutely fantastic. By the time you all hear this,
I will have left Wichita. I have quite a few
more coming up. I'm actually gonna be in Palm Springs
the day that y'all hear this. So if you hear
this on the fourth, was it, no?

Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
The third?

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
The third is the day that this one will drop.
Please go ahead and find me in Palm Springs. Come
on out, hang out. We're gonna have a good time.
We're gonna have a good Kiki and then from there
I'll be headed to San Francisco. But with that being said,
love y'all, thank you for everybody who has.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Supported the book.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
We want to thank our producer Bei Wayange for helping
to put this magical episode together, and again, thank you
Melanie for being here with us.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
We really appreciate you in your time.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
And we also want to shout out everyone over at
iHeartMedia for keeping the show up and running, because we
do know that black and quor voices are being censored
these days, and so we are so grateful that we
continue to keep having a platform to talk our shit
and also talk about the shit that is going to
change the world. So thank you for all of that
and everybody over at iHeart for keeping that going. We

(01:18:32):
also want to shout out our wonderful editor, Chris Rogers,
because without him, we wouldn't have a show or visuals all, Beyonce,
this has been another show, stay black, fat, femine, fabulous,
and I know y'all are expecting me to close the
normal way that we close, But this week I wanted
to tell those who hate on me, my co host

(01:18:52):
and this show that it ain't gonna get you on
a Big ten networker. You can keep hating on this show,
you can keep hating on us, you can keep being mad,
but you're hating from outside the club. How are you
hating outside the club when you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Even get in.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
I'll give you more information later. Panara, Panini press honey.
Matter of fact, you can choke on that dry ass
bread that they give you as a side with that
bland ass suit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
I love us for real. I'll see you next week.
Love you by