June 6, 2025 • 71 mins
Laverne Cox joins HIGHKEY! to talk trans erasure, identity, and surviving Hollywood in 2025. She shares how the cancellation of Clean Slate affected her personally and financially, and explains why being palatable to white audiences didn’t protect her. Laverne breaks down her evolving stance on respectability politics and the growing divestment from trans stories. She also revisits a recent speech where she called out Gavin Newsom by name—and why she’s done playing nice. A raw and thoughtful conversation about power, creativity, and what it takes to keep going.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, what's up girlies? Now?
Speaker 2 (00:01):
If y'all love this show, I know you do, please
support the Patreon.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Yes, the patreons where we're posting all the bonus content
every week.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
There's going to be extra stegments behind the scenes. There's
going to be.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Special group chats, all sorts of special access stuff that
you can't get anywhere else.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Especially So Special. We've got a lot of fun stuff
for you and so so. So get in while the
water is warm.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Please that I don't water being warm? Yeah, what are you?
What are you even trying to say?
Speaker 5 (00:29):
Though?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Join our patreon guys.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I almost that hate crime yesterday and it was my.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Second hate crime. Did you deserve it? I actually did
in this time.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
I remember the last time I got called a faggot
was because I gotten a full on fight with this
entire Russian family on the plane.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, the crazy thing is, I'm gonna say what you
towed bench It could have happened to anyone.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's not because you're gay. It could have happened to anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's because you're annoying. Hey, friends, Happy Friday and welcome
to High Key.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm Bette O Keith, I'm Ryan Mitchell, and I'm me
the uply Now today we have so much to dive into.
We're talking identity activism with the one, the only, Laverne Cox.
But first let's have a high key key good morning,
Good morning, hey guys, good.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Afternoon, good evening.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
You know, wherever you are in the world, you're awake,
shout out to you, because I rather be in the
bed right now, not even gonna lie to you. I
got ready in a very rue Paul Shrag Race mini
challenge type of way, except for I don't look as
busted as y'all do when y'all do it.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
So you have producers, they're like also asking you about
your childhood.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Drama and if fact Queen brought it up.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Absolutely actually, but my producer is my mom texting me
all about our family drama.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Okay, that's real. How are y'all doing? I'm doing, guys.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I almost got hate crime yesterday and it was my
second hate crime.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Did you deserve it? I actually didn't this time. I
actually did it.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I was which part on the fagotry. It was on
the fagotree this time, fellow black person, So I think
it must have been the fagotory.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We see each other.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I was just like walking and I was talking to
my sister. I just got off a work meeting. Maybe
I was a little heated, so I was like in
the full gay storytelling mode and I'm just like walking
in some guys like you fucking faggot, and like comes
at me, and I'm just like I wasn't really fully
paying attention because I was in the story and so
I just kind of kept walking until he eventually stopped
(02:46):
following me. But it's like a little triggering because I
was actually attacked in a hate crime right after Jussey
Smollett did his fake hate crime. Okay, this was like
twenty nineteen, and.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So you also get that yesterday it wasn't a hate crime.
It was just an act of hate, bitch, Like it
was just some dude, And I was almost like hate
crime obvious, just being like, hey, I can tell you're gay,
and I'm affirming that fi deeply.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm serious.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Right now, we Dan is telling you, guys a really
triggering moment.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Because you hope to laugh or it's kind of sad, right,
I mean, like, look, first of all, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Like, correct, I am.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
A faggot being a fagot literally pays my bills.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm doing it as we speak, first of all.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Second of all, and like I love being queer, Like
it's not an insult to me. Like maybe when I
was fifteen, if you would have called me a faggot,
I would have been a little sad. Now I'm just like,
are we allowed to say this? Is I heart going
to be mad? I don't care. I love being a faggot.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm sorry. If Gail King can say faggot now, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Everyone what in the yeah after her allowed?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, And you know, I don't actually genuinely believe that,
but I do believe like that just also comes with
the territory for some reason of living in New York. Yeah,
someone on the on the bus or the trains and
they just looked over at you and be like, wow,
you spell very faggoty today.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, Like I'm in a Caribbean neighborhood, So like I
hear like bati boy, and I hear like you hear
these things. But like when I was actually attacked, we
were walking to the subway, my partner and I and
she had just sort of started transitioning and was wearing
like a wig. And I was like walking her to
the subway, just walking her to work, and like dropped
her off at the subway and as we were going in,
some guy was like, that's a fucking man. Whatever. Cool,
(04:37):
it's not but nice. I'm glad you think so whatever.
So as I walk out, he keeps.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Talking to me. I was like, will you just like
leave me alone? Like why do you have to say that?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
And then he punches me and he goes to pull
out a gun.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, and so I literally at the same moment, this
is a different moment.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
This is before Oh wow, this is what happened when
I was actually hate crime. Okay, you might need a move,
I ran, I mean this is down the straight for me. Well,
this is down the street from me. I like didn't
get on the subway for a year. I like was
afraid to go, you know, down the street. But I
ran into a grocery store. All the like guys at
the grocery store like came, you know, for defending me.
(05:16):
I felt it was really cute, a cute little moment,
but it was scary because it did just escalate from
voices to guns, right like from words to violence and
like that could have happened yesterday, do you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So it's just like, but.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Honestly, we live in fucking America, girl, that could happen
any day, like anywhere. Honestly, it's more likely for it
to happen to you without it being all tied to
your faggotry, Like you're just accidentally going to the wrong
bodega on the wrong day and someone's just like.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I, no, no, I disagree. I live in estate.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Like I feel really safe in New York. I think
that when we are unsafe is when we're on the street.
And I think sis women experienced this. I think a
lot of different folks of different genders and experiences where
it's like men feel the right to say whatever they
want and like, look, you can use your words how
you want, and.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I'm going to keep walking, but when you move.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Past words to physicality, that's too far, you know what
I mean? And like I was actually in the mood
to fight, so like I was proud of myself for
not getting in a fight because I really did kind
of want to fight yesterday.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well thank god, says girl. That's all I'm about, Like
I understand.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
I actually also believe it or not understand what it's
like to walk down the street as a queer person
as a.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Sometimes you yeah, yeah, the way you dress, I'm sure
you deal with shit all the time.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
No, no, actually ya keep talking. I'm gonna change. Actually
I don't, and that is to my part.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'm gonna change my outfit. I have to change. Okay, yeah,
change girl.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
You know look like literally the gayest people, and we
look way gayer than you. I cannot believe this bitch
is deciding to change midway through this is this is
so good for continuity.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Keep talking about my hay crime, Evie, It's all good.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I'm just proving that I'm that friend who's really sensitive
and the person to come talk to after direct trauma.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Exactly come right to ev oddly so she can actually
tell you, get the fuck over it, not even get the.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Fuck over it.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
It's just like, girl, he called you a faggot because
you're a faggot.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Stop being faggoty. And I didn't want to I want
to be faggotty.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
How did you change that quickly? Okay, Well, welcome bout.
My question is have you all experienced this?
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Are you asking me? Have I experienced a hate crime.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Not I mean, do you have you experienced a lot
of like queer phobia these days? Like I don't know,
I thought we were past this.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I mean same, if I'm being honest, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I've ever experienced a hate crime besides the ones that
I grew up, like in high school are like you know,
in middle school where your people are like trying to
I don't know, they found out about the word gay,
and they owe anything that doesn't feel like they're friends.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
They're calling you.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
That thing, and so like I've never actually knock on wood,
I've never actually been hate crimes, which I'm very blass
about that, right, And I think congratulations, you know, and he's.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Trying to make a rainbow. Happen to be honest, if
you sound like a soprano like.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
That, boys, par it's actually sirening the man they're like
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's the Jamaicans.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Are the Caribbean folks calling you bahti boy, But those
be the main ones trying to climb my back. Uh So,
no shame, no Shae, But no I haven't. And I
hate that that happened to you in a very serious moment,
you know, no one deserves that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You were just minding your business.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But I hope one day that you'll be able to
walk the streets and be in a in a safe,
you know, space where you don't have to you are,
your partner doesn't have to like encounter that, because that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I don't think I will know if we don't have
that in New York City, Like, where are we going
to have that?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
New York City is just the same as everywhere else now.
It's just the people who used to feel like they
had to shut up about the way they felt are
no longer shutting up.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
It's like the same shit everywhere. I get called a
faga everywhere I go. Where are y'all going?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
It's usually not to my family, It's like, usually not
to my face, legit. I remember the last time I
got called a fagot was because I gotten a full
on fight with this entire Russian family on the plane.
And you know what, I have some racist shit to
say about Russians right now, but I don't.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I don't know anything.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Stereotypes about you guys, except for you from a cold place.
So you know what to that whole family that fucked
with me stole one of my headphones, tried to hide
it under your seat, and also don't understand the idea
of lifting your fucking seat back up when we are
landing so my knees don't crash through your spine, I say, or.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I don't know how to curse in Russian.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well somebody, Well, the crazy thing is, I'm gonna say
what you chold being. It could have happened to anyone.
It's not because you're gay. It could have happened to
anyone because you're annoying.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I'm sorry, it's annoying. I'm sorry. No. On a real note, though,
I I do.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Feel as if I don't receive as much bullshit or
shenanigans walking down the street because of a lot of
the way I play chameleon adapting in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Like oh, you think you're straight passing.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
No, it's not about straight pass It's just about straight passing.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Because you're not listen, mama. I literally live on a
crack corner.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I straight pass enough to stay alive in a place
where people are shot every couple of months, where there's
a death of year at least has a bullshit, drug shenanigans,
sex work, and like that's what I'm talking about is
on a serious note, like we get to key because
we're inside my house or a hotel.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right now, y'all can see my nipples. Like if you
watch the YouTube there you go, Okay, but wait, can
I talk about yes please? Superstar?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
First of all, can we just talk for a second,
Like you're posting pictures with every famous queer and their mother,
You're on stages like, and then you're like casually texting
us in the side.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I'm like, you're a superstar when it comes to no.
I mean, it was a really fun time.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
If you don't know, I host wes Tollywood Pride Out
Loud Music Festival and I've been doing it, which is crazy.
I've been doing it for the past five years. I've
been hosting this music festival and it's only been four
years that it's been placed in West Hollywood, and every
year it just gets better and better. And this year
was like there was some behind the scenes chaos, but it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Was still incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Like Lizzo headlined on Saturday, Paris Hilton and Remy Wolf
headline on Sunday. Friday was Maren Morris, which first of all,
shout out to that country, like dawg because I had
no clue she could even like give pop star realness.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, shout out to that country doll. She was just so.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Great, and it was just really nice to be reminded of, like,
oh wow, like Pride is a really beautiful like family
re union, right, Like there's so many people there that
I haven't seen, or I get to invite people to
come see me like do my thing, and just like
I got a really beautiful compliment from someone that has
like come a lot of the year and they were like,
(12:01):
every time I see you on stage every year, I
know I'm gonna have a good time.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
They should keep you until this is over.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And I was just like, you kind of forget this thing, right,
Like you just kind of get into the mode of
just doing doing, doing, and you're like, oh, this is
not a check work, but like it's a really special
to be seen in a beautiful way this year where
people were like, oh, work, what are you doing? Like
I saw high key like the announcement, congratulations, like all
these really beautiful things like all that kind of happening
(12:28):
all at once, and it was beautiful. But I will
say this, I don't want to see another queer person
besides you two for the next three weeks over.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Flowers.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I'm glad that you got to like hear that, because
you know, even though you know it, to hear it
it's just a different thing.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
It gets you keep going.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And to hear that too when it's like, oh, Paris,
Hilton's here and all these people are here and like,
but you Ryan are the person who like they decided
to come up and say that too.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
That makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You got your flowers and put my trailer in near
Paris this year, which was so iconic and also shout
out to Carl Delvine. I got to see that chaos
of a white woman in real life, and I am.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Obsessed, yes, obsessed with her.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
She was like, I don't know if she just has
like the like servant ancester like spirit inside of her
because she was holding Paris's fan like she was like
making sure the lighting was good. I'm like, girl, tell
me you were an executive assistant without telling me you
are an executives sistant in the past life.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Is that like her professional gig now? Because she was
she was on season eleven. She was judging on Season
eleven way back in the day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yes, I told her you were we were doing the
show together. She was like, I love Evie.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
That line, bitch, that line cut. This is directly to you, Kara,
Like what the fuck? You helped Brooklyn win some bullshit
ball challenge. Actually she didn't win.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
See look at you. You don't even remember, y'all sees never mind,
I'd take it.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
I don't like the whole time was saying lovely things
about ev and she doesn't even remember.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Speechless phenomenal, one of my favorites of this whole show.
She was so excited and she was like, I have
something really exciting coming up, so I would love to
come on the show. So maybe stick around for that.
Carl will be on high key.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
You know, I'm not on your hustle in the streets
trying to get our guests please thank you.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
She represents that subtype of lesbian who's like really ready
and down to like be there for everyone in their life.
Because every time I've seen her in real life, she
is like making sure the lighting's good on her friend
selfies and stuff, and I'm like, you're a supermodel, Like
I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
She's a real one, and she looks very.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Regular, like no shade, She's very regular in person something
I have to.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Tell people, do y'all know, Like that's like the icon
like models.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Like there's this woman named Karen Elson and she's a supermodel.
She's been on the cover of many, many magazines. I
remember when I met her and I was like, what
do you do? And she's like, I'm a model. And
I was like, oh, like, have you ever done anything important?
And everyone like kind of laughs, and I'm like, oh what,
she looks really normal to me that I've done that
multiple times, Haley class. I was like walking down the
(15:01):
street with her, I was like, that girl on the
billboard looks just like you. And she's like, that is
me and I was like, no, that's a Victoria's Secret model, honey.
I just like I'm so oblivious to that. Like I'm
like that when I meet all sorts of people I
met that. I'm not gonna say it because I don't
even know. I'm not going to say that. Never mind,
never mind?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Are you I've never seen bid? Like try him?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I'm like, wait, actually that's for the book. She hasn't
seen your plan. You know, she got a take your
plans she's working to do.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
You're all in it too, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, can I just say, can we really quickly our
first episode is out? What was some of the responses
that y'all got before we get out of this highky key.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I feel like the biggest response I got was some
guy walked down the street and called benefaggot what.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
We saw the billboard a Time Square? I know what
you are, bag it?
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, basically pretty much that I've gotten, like such an
amazing respond So many people listened, and I guess, like
I for some reason, I just wasn't expecting some of
it's like straight white guys in my dms, like I
really enjoyed that what you were saying about, And I
was like, okay, okay, I guess we're doing something. And
then we got to go see the billboard. Evie and
I were in person. Ryan, of course you were hosting Pride,
(16:30):
but we got to FaceTime you and just like to
see our faces up in Times Square was a really,
really amazing thing. And I'm so excited because we're just
getting started, you know, like now we're just getting started,
and now we need to get into the fun parts.
Because that first episode's a little different. It's kind of
like an introduction to us, and now like we're doing interviews, Ryan,
(16:51):
you're doing the first interview. I don't want you set
that up.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It was such a big deal. Actually, do you want
to talk about it? Yeah? I mean it's really cool.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I'm very excited about like this part of the show
because this is what really like attracted me to doing
this is being able to talk to really cool people,
ones that we've been always fans of, but also new
voices and new perspectives. And Laverne Cox is someone who
is an absolute legend. Correct, you know you know her
from being Sophia on More just New Black. It made
(17:20):
her the first trans Emmy nominated actress. She's an activist
and advocate so much. And we this conversation, y'all, we
talked about so much. I mean, we talked about her
proximity to whiteness compared to her other black transistors. We
talked about fascism that pops up a few times. Godule Literally,
she's just in an era where she's no longer holding back,
(17:40):
and I'm really excited for you all to hear this
fresh and vulnerable perspective that she is now giving the world.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
When we get back Laverne Cox will be in your
ears and on your screens see you in a minute.
I'm so happy you are here. You are our first
guest on High Key. So this is a very beautiful moment.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
There's some times when it's important to say yes, and
it feels when it feels like the energy is there
and we can make it work with the schedule.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
If you remember this, but I DMed you because I
got press screenings to watch Clean Slate.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I mentioned it in literally hours.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Like the same day, because I also am a media
consultant glad I work at the GMI and we were
doing a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I got to work with the team, the cast, you know,
George Wallace tell me Hopkins.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I got to help media train them and like really
be a part of this beautiful experience that Clean Slay
was because we hadn't had this sort of level of
intersectional storytelling ever. I mean, and there has been, but
it just feels like we hadn't had any recent history,
and so it was really beautiful to be a part
of that. I want to know obviously, your connection to
(19:01):
Clean Slay, because you've described the cancelation. You described it
as devastating, right, And I wondered did it feel so devastating,
because it did feel like that story was very personal
to you, and you were also a part of being
a co creator, like you were a part of Abduction,
part of this.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I mean, I've had shows canceled before I Doubt. I
was on a show on CBS I'm called Doubt and twenty.
We shot it in twenty sixteen and premiered in twenty seventeen.
It's canceled after this second episode. We shot all thirteen episodes.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
That was rough.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I mean, that was devastating too, because we worked so hard.
But it was different, Like, literally a week later I
booked a pilot and I was literally a week after
we were canceled, I was packing to go to Vancouver
to shoot a pilot. So it was just it was
a very different experience. It's different when you are hired
onto a show as opposed to you meet a guy
(19:54):
named Dan Ewen at Soho House like seven eight years ago,
and you start talking about a show, and you get
ideas and you brainstorm and you start like creating it together,
and like it's based loosely on your life and you
conclude stories from your life, and you're hiring and you're
casting and interviewing costume designers, and like you're producing and
(20:19):
you're in, you're negotiating, and you're pitching to networks. So
it was it was my baby, it was my baby,
It's Dan's baby, you know, And so it's hard when
you're it's like, it feels like your baby's rejected, but
I don't. The public didn't reject Clean Slate. So my
feedback I've gotten from this remkes me want to cry.
All everyone who's watched it has been really really beautiful,
(20:43):
like the people and then even he's hearing like, oh,
my mom was watching Clean Slate. I'm like, where's your
mom from. She's like North Carolina. I was like, did
you tell her to watch She's like, no, she just
watched it. And she's like goes, she's a church woman
from the South.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
I'm like, this is needs to be seeing it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
That's literally my story. My mom lives so I'm from Nashville.
She lived to South Carolina at the time, and she
turned that show on and watched it, and she's very religious.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
It's that's why I was connected to it.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
From the jump, Like it's it just is so different
than anything that we saw. And then of course the
cherry on top being it was a part of the
Norman Lear legacy.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
What I understand is that it's a miracle to get
a TV show produced, because I've tried to get a
lot of them produced and they haven't and somehow, and
I'd given up on Clean Slate because it was years
and we were in development at places, and we fell
out of development at a few different places. Had yes,
it's that turned into nose, a lot of nose, and
so I just let it go. And then I also
was like, oh, they're not buying trans stories. They are
(21:38):
not interested in telling trans stories now. And this was
years ago, like six years ago, and I was like,
I need to pivot. And then we got picked up
on Norman's We found out that we got picked up
on Norman Layer's hundredth birthday, which was pretty special, and
we got to make it and people get to see
it still and have the experience of a show and
(22:01):
maybe see themselves and their families in the show and
try to reconcile their religion with you know. So it's
there and the work is there and for people to
consume if they choose to and hopefully laugh and be
moved by And that is that is a gift.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
It is, it's a gift.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Do you remember getting the yes, I was just in shock.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
I remember just being like I thought this was dead,
Like I didn't, and I don't. I've learned in show
business not to believe something is happening until it's on
the air, not even when you're doing it, like not
even like we were in Savannah shooting, I was just
in the work. I was doing my work, you know,
I had the first time I actually worked my acting
(22:48):
coach every single day of shooting, and I was just
in the work until it's on the air. You don't,
you don't. They're nothing certain. So I've just learned and
that that's the case. And then also what I have
to as I write my book and think about my
life and career over the past like decade or so.
When Orange happened, Orange was so Orange's New Black, it
(23:12):
was so insanely successful. And that's a show that it
is like that that the public loves and watches in
en mass and then it's critically a claim that leads
to like Immy nominations and multiple magazine covers like that
kind of show. BID's moment is really rare, and so
(23:34):
I have to like I've been like, Okay, you need
to put all this in perspective, Like I mean, I
had certainly before Orange, I had twenty years in New
York of studying and like you know, barely making you
waiting tables, working in restaurants, and not really being able
to make a living as an actor. And so I
had a break out moment that was.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
Was really I think in retrospect, you I.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Want to see a doctor, you can't go to the
clinic unless it's in emergency.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
I'd like to report an emergency.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
I think Oranges New Black was probably a huge cultural
moments to it, but I think.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
It probably is an understatement.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I mean it was huge, Yeah, literally create I mean
not to say it created Netflix, but it did. Like
it was two shows that were on that that platform.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
And I've heard or just a New Black and more
people watching us and how the Cards no shade because
I live for House of Cards. But yeah, and so
I think, like when you have that kind of success
with a show, and then you know that's the that's unusual.
What you know, what happened? With Clean Slay and other
(24:42):
projects that's more typical. So it's about key having all
these things in perspective, and I'm I'm insanely ambitious and
I always have been, and I I want to be successful.
But like it's like, how do you measure success? Is
it about some extern a metric of ratings or you know,
(25:03):
bank and that in show business, that is part of it,
like how many you know, what's how many followers, how
many viewers?
Speaker 6 (25:09):
All that stuff.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
By the way, the Red Carpet we are, like, I
think our Grammys was the last Grammy show was the
highest rates since twenty seventeen. The People's Choice Award Red
Carpet like was like seven times the viewership of the
year before. Like, so we had ratings on me. Yeah,
and I'm proud of that because that's that's important. It's important.
The business part of it is really important. But it's
(25:30):
really interesting and tricky being a black trans woman in
show business at this moment, in this cultural moment, not
just in America but all over the world where there's
just a divestment from trans stories from trans people. There's
like an attack on trans people on a policy level
(25:52):
from the state, state, sanctioned like discrimination that like we've
never seen before, and college is in university are like
being defunded, and they're scared. So they're like, you know
a lot a huge part of my business. When Orange
started with college lectures, I was I've spoken in hundreds
of colleges and universities.
Speaker 6 (26:11):
And now I can't.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
I never thought, because we did so well there and
professors loved me.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What you mean you can't, Like people are there saying.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
No, we have not been able to book a college gig, like,
oh wow. When the strike happened a couple of years ago,
I reached out to my agency and I was like,
you know, I was like, oh, I'm willing to cut
my fees, you know, because my fee had gone up
a little bit. You know, your fees go up, and
college is every college can't afford you know what we were,
you know, you know what the quote was at the time,
(26:41):
and so I was like, I'm willing to cut my
speaking fee in half. And I miss the connection to
young people too. I really really love it. When I
was doing it too much, it was, you know, just
because I was hustling and trying to make money and
get out of debt.
Speaker 6 (26:53):
And those first few years.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
You know, I started twenty fifteen debt free, which was
like amazing, and start like, you know, really being able
to save for retirement and all this stuff. Twenty fifteen
I would have been like forty two forty three, which
is intense, you know, but that's life. I'm waiting to
work for tips most of my adult life, and you know.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
What, where is their saving? Where am I saving?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Shout out to us that service industry is nothing to
play with.
Speaker 6 (27:20):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
I have deep respect for people in service dustry. Be
nice to people, please and tip them. So I'm just
really grateful. But it's what's happening. I'm shocked, but I'm not.
I just always thought I'd be able to go back
to college and universities because I was just so loved.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
There and that was like your fallback plan in some ways.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Yeah, professors loved me, the students loved me.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
We've had packed auditoriums everywhere I went, standing ovations. Administrators
loved me, the professors loved me. I was referencing to
Heeial they were teaching. It just went really well. And
that work is completely gone now, and it's it's kind
of shocking. And obviously corporations have divested to and so
(28:03):
it's just okay, what does.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That do for you when you are trying to want
I mean, our type of livelihoods are your next gig
and you, I mean, of course, have been able to
set yourself up where you have a little something in
the bank or like to save a little bit and
you can kind of go a little bit, right But I.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Do have a fashion habit though that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
We'll talk about muglair in a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But I do think it's it's what do you do
when you're realizing, Okay, this isn't the same. There is
a shift happening in a real, real way. And I
don't know what the next ten years look like if
we keep going with the way that the state of
the culture is and this political climate.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
I mean, there's a few things I think about.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
I think about my own survival and livelihood, right Like,
so I've had to make some lifestyle changes, right just
to because I'm making less money, you make adjustments in
terms of my own survival, fear and how to pivot,
you know, I think like show business in life is
about the pivot.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It seems like you're what you're able to do and
go on shows in a mainstream way and talk about
these issues are sometimes different from even like some of
your like sisters in community who also have platforms. Right, Like,
it seems like you're able to say the thing that
we all are needing, but like if they say something,
it's like it's not reciprocated in the same way. And
(29:30):
I have you ever thought about that in the ways
that it seems like you know, I mean, I think
of someone like Angelic Ross, right, Angela Cross is a powerful,
like powerhouse voice I've seen just from the outside looking
in the not to compare, but you have an ability
to be able to still exist in the room in
the ways that she may not able to if she's
(29:52):
like blowing the whistle.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Angelica hasn't had the access that I've had. She hasn't
had the access that I've had the Orange is New
Black platform, because that show was so huge. It gave
me a really really big platform that a lot of
my trans siblings have not had. Angelica is indeed brilliant,
But also I think what I think a huge part
(30:16):
of my story, and I've said this before publicly, is
I went to for high school. I went to the
Album School of Fine Arts and I was a creative
writing and dance major there, and so I not only
was I, you know, going to a school with mostly
white kids from affluent backgrounds, I was living with them
twenty four to seven and that was a wonderful I
(30:38):
love being surrounded by all the artistic disciplines and I
love I love painting, I love classical music, I love theater,
I love art. But one of the lessons I was
I also learned at the Album School of Fine Arts
that I didn't know I was learning was learning to
make white people comfortable. And I mean, I think there's
like different levels of that because with my a lot
(31:00):
of my survival we have fight, flight or freeze, right
in terms of survival, we also have tend in befriend
and tendon befriend was like one of my survival strategies
in relationship to my mother, and I think we're in
relationship to life. And Angelica is more of a fight girl,
you know, she's like and so there's a piece around
around whiteness and palatability, around whiteness and making white people comfortable,
(31:25):
and Angelica, I know, is not interested in that. She
is certainly she's not, and I don't think we need
I don't think we should.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Be either period. I think we should be.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
But that just generationally for me and because of my background,
that became something that for survival, I just it's almost
a default thing of like making trying to like diffuse
the befriend trying to defuse potential conflict, and trying to
(31:57):
meet people where they are.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
How do you break through that though?
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's really tricky, So it's we shouldn't have to be
in a space of making white folks comfortable.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
That shouldn't be the prerequisite.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
And even when you can, it still doesn't mean that
they're not going to still call you angry.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
I'll never forget.
Speaker 5 (32:18):
Early on, I had gone on CBS this morning and
it was the first time Gail King had interviewed me.
And this was early on, so it was the early period,
like I think its twenty fourteen, and I was still
having to like, you know, make corrections with people around
language and how to talk with and about trans people.
And part of my activism too early on was like
(32:38):
we had to change the conversation with and about trans
people if I was going to have a career, like
if I was if people were going to be able
to see my humanity and my talent, we needed to
move the conversation away from like what people's genitalia is
and like what happens in a gender transition, Like that's
like that's dehumanizing. And I had this moment with Gail
(32:59):
and she said, well, you were born a boy, and
I was like a sign mail at birth And I
just said a sign mail at birth and then you know,
just a little correction. And a black trans woman I
was still on Facebook at the time, a black trans
woman I knew wrote me on d n me on
Facebook and.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
Said she was hearing she's such a gug.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
She was hearing from a lot of white gay men
that I was coming across as angry on TV and
I needed to pull it back.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And she was thinking she was giving you like advice,
like let me.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Almost like the white gay said the black trans woman
to like get me together.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
Like it was.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
It was such a goof, And I wish I had
this DM because like I changed my Facebook from a
personal account to like a business account or whatever.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Saw everything you lose all your dms. God, I wish
I still had that DM.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
It was such a gag Like that was like it
was such a gag. I mean, do you think about
the meta of an ad She literally had the audacity,
like the audacity to say these white she said, white
gay men are saying that you're coming across is angry
and like it didn't compute to her how like effed
(34:11):
up it was that she was like she was being
sent or she felt compelled.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
That was just that was deep.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
So, I mean the reality and I think what folks
everybody should understand is that as much as I tried to, like,
you know, navigate respectability politics in the beginning of my
career when Orange broke through and I felt the pressure
of like, I'm the first transperson people may be coming
in contact with through the media, and I can't say
(34:39):
the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, all of
that trying to be respectable did not keep our rights
from being.
Speaker 6 (34:47):
Distripped away from us.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Right, So respectability of politics is not it period period.
Making white people making the dominant culture comfortable is not it.
In terms of if you're interesting liberation and justice, if
you want to just you know, sort of you know,
or if you're interested in your own career and your
own self advancement, then maybe, But if you're interested in
justice and freedom for marginalized people, that's that's not the tea.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
That's not it.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
But I want to also try to maintain access and
not piss too many people off because I have a
lot of critiques that I just keep because I think
I need to try to maintain some access from my community,
for my people. You know, it's like it's bigger than me,
Like I did have. I had a moment on Transliberation
Day when I was in LA a month or so ago,
(35:35):
and it was the first time in a speech where
I cursed where I called like a politician out by name,
and it was raw.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
How did that feel?
Speaker 6 (35:45):
It felt? It felt good, It felt good, and it
felt but.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
It was also like, in this moment, after we've had
a fascist takeover and seeing what we've been seeing, it's
we can't it's not it's no time to be, it's
no time to be. You can't equivocate. You have to
we have to call a thing a thing.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
We can.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
We have to say it plainly, and we have to
say it in a way that it's going to transmit
to the people where we understand clearly and you know,
me cursing and me just reading. I was, I was,
you know, my kitchen table, Laverne that wants to read down.
Speaker 6 (36:23):
She came out like, I, I, you.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Know, I dragged Gavin you some I rag and he
just I dragged him.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
But know, some girl, what can I talk to you?
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Like I talked to my girlfriends?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
What the fuck with that?
Speaker 6 (36:41):
I've never done that before, you know, publicly?
Speaker 5 (36:44):
It felt, it felt right, it felt good and what
it was beautiful that I had. There was an audience
of LGBTQ plus people that I was in front of
me who needed this and afterwards even some of the
things I said people again there was teaching. The speech
was with three to five minutes. It was thirty minutes. Girl,
I had a lot to say. And a woman came
(37:04):
up to me and before afterwards and said, you know,
I had never thought about it because I apparently doing
the speech.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
I said, where we are now.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Is that the Democrats have become Republicans and the Republicans
have become fascists. Yeah, and just that thing that I've
just been aware of for years, that was an aha
for her. And then I talked about Polly Murray and
someone because I was I talked about Ron DeSantis and
how he's banning books and how you know, and how
he He's like, you know, what does queer theory have.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
To do with AP African American history? Which just I
don't know what that.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Just that was years ago, and that press conference lives
rent free in my head because intersectionality for me is
it's a mental health like me understanding even beyond just
a macro political understanding of the world, just like a
personal understanding of how I experienced the world. Without an
(37:55):
intersectional lens, I would be so lost. And he said that,
you know, they're talking queer theory and AP African American
what does queer theory have to do with AP African
American history? And that sounds like pushing an agenda. And
then he said and the next thing things like intersectionality,
that sounds like an agenda, not history. And I was
just like, and I went off, I'm like, maybe you know,
(38:18):
when we talk about black history, we often talk about
the March on Washington where doctor Martin Luther King made
the iconic I have a dream speech that's pretty much
in every Black history by resting and by arresting, Yes,
a gay black man organized that Mars.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
The first man.
Speaker 7 (38:33):
Is that we have effective civil rights legislation, no compromise,
no Philip buster, and that it includes public accommodations SESUS housing.
It's a great education FAPC and the rights to vote.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What should you say?
Speaker 5 (38:56):
That's intersectionality James Baldwin, is Madston Hughes Nikki do you girl?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I mean?
Speaker 6 (39:03):
And Polly Murray, who a lot of people don't know.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
That's why you have to have the queer thing, because
it's intersectional, and because the way it functions in our
lives because of homophobia by arresting almost didn't have the
opportunity to do that. Polly Murray coined the term Jane
Crow because Polly understood, as an assigned female person at
birth who was black, that racism was functioning in their
(39:30):
life in a way that was different because they were
perceived as a woman, and that there was a way
like I can't just understand what's happening to me if
I just look at race. I can't just understand if
I look at it through gender or sexuality. It's all
these things operating simultaneously at once in my life. And
so it's it's so I get so upset banning books.
(39:55):
First of all, I mean Tony Morrison is one of
the books the're banded Belle hooks like these are people
who have like changed my life and shifted my consciousness.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
So like a lot of my favorite authors are being banned.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
But the anti intellectual thing, you have to just call
it what it is, so that people understand that this
is fascism, and that so much of this project of
the misinformation, the alternative truths, the curriculums that they want
to teach at colleges they want.
Speaker 6 (40:26):
They don't want us to be educated.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
They don't want it because an educated populist is is
going to push back against all this stuff. They rely
on people being uneducated or misinformed or so. And one
of the huge reasons I'm here is also because of education,
because my mom was a teacher, Because I learning and
curiosity and critical thinking, it's just literally power.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's the one thing that I remember growing up, my
mom telling me she also works at higher education. Seem
you actually, And so it's so frustrating that we can
you to in a lot of ways through this fascism,
we're being gasled to believing something that's completely dishonest, absolutely
and it's so important to have you in the room
(41:13):
leading and adding your voice into this space because you're
I'm so happy you're also at this point in your
career and your life where you're just saying the thing
and it feels really I mean, it looks great on you,
by the way. I'm just saying that like that. There's
no not saying you were performing before, but there's no
performance now. It's literally like we're fighting for our lives
(41:34):
right now.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
And that's really why, because it's girl. When we're talking fascism,
you can't because there's no negotiation anymore. You can't negotiate
with someone who wants you dead, who doesn't think you
have the right to exist. So we need to get
really really real about what's happening, understand, tell the truth
about it, and then get strategies together. And I really
(41:55):
believe so much those strategies are within community. The government,
the politicians are going to do it for the corporations
aren't going to do it for us, But we can
do it for each other. And so I think that's
a huge reason for me about why true telling and
having the courage to do that so we can like
level set for our survival because when we can and
(42:15):
will survive this, everybody might not though, So if we
want to survive this fascist moment and come out on
the other side, we it's got to be each other.
It's got to be in community.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I want to end this because one, like I said,
you were our first guests. So when I tell you
eight this is such a great conversation. I could talk
to you for like seven more hours, and I hope
we've become I could.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Talk for seven more hours unfortunately, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
We continue to be friends. But I want to end
with a new tradition that we're doing on the show.
What are you high key about right now? What are
you hig key? Feeling high key?
Speaker 5 (42:53):
I'm just feeling hopeful about art and creativity. There is
a wonderful a few new scripts that have come across
my desk. And had a meeting with this amazing directory
yesterday and it's a film that eight years ago was
brought to me and it went away and now it's
been rewritten and it's so good. And I was just
(43:14):
so excited about I've just been manifesting as an actor
like I.
Speaker 6 (43:18):
There's so much good.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Work out there for that actors are doing that's so inspiring.
I'm particuarly thinking of em a stone and poor thing,
and I'm just like I wanted something where I'm challenged,
where I could transform, and the physicality, the vocal. There's
so many different elements of acting. There's the emotional life,
but then there's the physical parts and maybe there's a
(43:40):
vocal elements of the character, and this character that the
new version of this character in the script is like
everything I've been manifesting and wishing for.
Speaker 6 (43:49):
So I'm just kind of.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Like excited, but I'm also like, girl, you're going to
have to work. This is not it's not going to
be easy, like this movie. It's probably gonna be the
hardest thing I've done, and I'm going to have to
clear the schedule and like commit in a way that
I've never committed before. And I'm insanely excited about that.
(44:11):
So I think that, like I'm high key about like
even when things seem dire and like there's no hope,
you continue to manifest and you continue to be grateful.
And that doesn't mean that you don't have to keep
doing your work, but turning it over, I don't have
to carry all of this by myself. There is there
(44:33):
is an energy, there is a there's a God, a
higher power that can carry this with me and hallelujah.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
Even without a man.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
There are friends, like real friends, girlfriends who love me
and see me and got me.
Speaker 6 (44:48):
Oh, who have me.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
But I'm I'm so grateful for those little I mean,
they're big things, but they're just it's.
Speaker 6 (45:02):
The love, the love.
Speaker 5 (45:03):
That I have in my life from my friends and
from my God, and and the love I have for
my work and uh and the faith that.
Speaker 6 (45:11):
I have in.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
And God and the universe and some people some people,
and I still haven't given up on humanity yet.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
But thank God, there's like think, I mean, I think
that like knowing love.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Is like real love, love that like changes you where
you are deeply seen and known by maybe a friend first,
maybe you know. I did an intimacy workshop for years
with a group of people where I got to sort
of practice intimacy.
Speaker 6 (45:45):
And experiencing love.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
And an unconditional love is everything and it and the
and when it's romantic. My ex was that until it wasn't.
And so I feel I can take a break from
all of it because I I know that song from
the AIGs.
Speaker 6 (46:02):
I don't know what love is. I know what love is.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
I know what love is in my like in my
not just intellectually. I know it in my body. I
felt it like I felt romantic love and passion and
that soulmate thing. I feel it with my girlfriends when
we sit around a table and listen to each other
and kiki.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
And cackle but support and cry together.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
I know love, and I'm high key about knowing love,
and that love has always been for my art too.
That is what has gotten me through my life when
I didn't know, like you know, parental love or friendship
love or romantic love. I knew love for my art.
I knew that and that passion. So I know what
(46:45):
love is. I'm high key about love and love is
everything it really is, and it can be for music
or art or like that. Love gets me through a
really good friend like friends like I haven't.
Speaker 6 (47:01):
I've been is.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
My romantic life has been messy, but my friendships haven't.
I have friends who like they keep getting messy friends.
I've been good about like picking friends. I've been very protective.
Speaker 6 (47:12):
There.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
The romantic stuff trickier, but it's but I mean, it's
hard for most women. It's really hard for most Black women,
really hard for successful black.
Speaker 6 (47:23):
Women, and then at being trans and famous to that.
Speaker 5 (47:27):
I'm blessed that I've known the love that I have,
and because I've known it, I can recreate it like
I right now I'm thinking about I feel it. I
don't know if you can feel it coming from it.
I hope you can that like I feel like the
most feeling like seen. I love that where you're deeply
seen and known and and it's reciprocated. Okay, card, this
(47:50):
is the last thing I'm gonna say. Brene Brown's love
definition I see if I remember off the top of
my head. Brene Brown defines love as long. She says,
we cultivate I love. To cultivate love when we allow
our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen
and known and honor the off that offering with trust, respect, kindness,
(48:12):
and affection. Love is not something we give or get.
It's something we nurture and grow a connection that can
only exist between two people when it exists within each
of them. We can only love others as much as
we love ourselves. Come on, RuPaul, she doesn't say that,
Oh shame blame, disrespect.
Speaker 6 (48:35):
I'm going to stut this off. This part is so important.
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and then withholding of affection damages
the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive
these injuries when they are acknowledged, healed and rare, rare.
Speaker 6 (48:59):
You can go. It's not brand bounds. You can google that.
That yeah, that and that is the definition.
Speaker 5 (49:09):
But when you know it in your body, that's the
thematic work in my therapy. When you sense it into
your body. Oh honey, I know what love is.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I think this is where we should end it. I
think ending it on this note of love. And I'm
so grateful to have experience this with you. And I
can't thank you enough. Thank you, thank you for being you,
thank you for your lights, thank you, and thank you
for believing in hope and in love.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
Truly, I do, I do? Amen?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
All right, that was wonderful, Ryan, Oh my gosh, I'm
sitting over here trying not to cry like like la
Verne did.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I know right, she did get quite emotional. But it
was really nice.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
I think as someone who like always been a fan
of hers, I wasn't expecting the show like our conversation
to be so retrospective and kind of go into these
depths of moments like I really wasn't expecting that at all,
but I think she showed up for context. You know,
we did this virtually, and she showed up very in
a like in a mood of some sorts that felt
(50:20):
like very like ready to pour it all.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
And I'm happy that she feels safe enough with me
to do it. And I've I've had.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
My favorite moments, but I wondered, kind of what were
some moments that like resonated with y'all. You know, EVI,
what what kind of hit you are being? Whoever wants
to go first start?
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I think, I mean, she touched on a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
One thing that I definitely related to was her conversation
about trying to make people feel comfortable, specifically like white
people and kind of respectability politics same. It was interesting
because I share a lot of the same trajectory growing
up that she did. I was surrounded by white people.
(51:04):
I went to art schools and this and that, and
I learned the skill of trying to make people around
me feel comfortable before I ever knew it was something
I was doing. And unfortunately something that I really related
to her talking about Angelica Ross is that I was
never good at ith. Yeah, I could never one hundred
(51:26):
percent convince somebody that I'm a good, nice, normal, respectable
African American person.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
I relate to that so much because I was good
at it. I was really good at it, and I
got so burned by it that I feel like I
have now swung over to the other extreme and like
I've always been a disruptor, and I love Angelica Ross
like we've always been kindred spirits in that way. But
there is something about like navigating these spaces. Like I
(51:54):
also think of Janet Mack coming up in that same
sort of space of Laverne and Angelica Ross. Janet, we
don't know where Janna is. She's kind of had to
hide away because you know in the cut, Yeah, because
you look, she spoke out about really real things that
she experienced. I think a lot of folks have spoken
out about being in the Ryan Murphy universe and what
that has meant and been like in their lives, and
(52:16):
it was just like, it's hard to it's it's wild
to hear Laverne kind of talk about that because she
has done a really great job. But I am starting
to see that shift. Like I had seen the video
of her speech, and I was like, oh, like, LaVerne's
not like speaking in the Netflix speak anymore.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
She's like ready to say the thing out loud.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I asked her about that because I think it's so interesting,
you know. I think of the India Wars, I think
of the Angela Crosses, I think of Hope, Giselle, who
are They're out here really kind of like doing the
work and saying the thing that has clearly impacted their
career specifically. And I feel like I have also kind
(52:57):
of sat in the space where I've never or needed to,
Like I never felt the need to tell myself down
or be something acceptable for white people. But I do
navigate white spaces quite often, and I think I know
how to do it through the ways that I grew
up as well. And I also know how to show
up and say the things that I want to say,
(53:17):
but do it in a way that is like accessible
and humorous and so like to hear her kind of
talk about that, because I had always assumed that.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
She had either some trauma or like she had.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Some like experiences of like doing it out of survival
because she's like, I'm trying to keep this access so
there is someone in the room. However, I'm like, how
do you free yourself from that survival kind of mentality,
because at the end of the day, they're going to
remind you that you're a black person or a black
trans woman any moment they get if you step out
(53:51):
of line. So it's like, if you're worried about impacting
your financial ability or your place, and when it comes
to access, it's like, how how do you kind of
get out of that mode? And I think she's in
this space where she's like, honestly, nobody cares.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
I'm fighting for my life.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Our sisters are fighting, We're all this community is fighting
for our lives right now. I don't care who I'm
making happy and who I'm not making happy. And I
think that's really.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
Powerful, and it's powerful because of where she came from.
Like I first started talking to la Verne Cox before
or just the New Black I remember when she was
like sex worker number two on lan on her SVU
and I sent a message that on Twitter that was like,
I think it's so cool to see black trans representation.
I can't wait until you don't just have to play
sex workers or something like that. And look it is
for I wanted to say, for so al Ryan, you
(54:36):
bringing Leverna on for our first interview means a lot.
That we are centering a black trans woman like that
means a lot, And I'm really really glad that you
did it. And I think what she also accomplished in
this interview was like a level of vulnerability that I
always dreamed our guests would have, because not only is
she talking about now how she navigates for her life
(54:56):
at this point and like the balance between proximity and
power and survival.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
But then she also like went really deep. She talked
about her bag.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, and I was kind of laughing because she was
talking about her public speaking career and before the pandemic,
that was a huge part of my business was it
was how I paid most of my bills with public speaking,
and often I would be getting speeches that like people
passed on because they couldn't afford her fee. And we
did a pilot episode where we all kind of opened
up about financial things that we had been through.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
And I think that folks are often really afraid to
be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
And to show like it's not easy being black and
queer and building a career on it no matter who
you are, even when you're the stars. And so I
really appreciated the vulnerability that you were able to bring
out of her in that moment, and I think that's
going to really help a lot of people realize that
it's okay to talk.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
About things and not be afraid of not looking perfect.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
And I think about you easy, it's okay to be poor. Well,
And that's the thing I actually kind of thought about
you because that video that you posted, like when you
were like really in financial like you know, in a
financial bind, and you were really like you were crying and.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
You were right still there.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
I mean, but there's something so beautiful about existing in
that space and like doing it publicly because I think
so many people just they already have their story and
their narrative that they have of you based off of
what you're posting and what you've been able to do,
and like you talking about that at that moment is
it really does kind of open stuff up for a
(56:27):
lot of people to really be like, Wow, it's not
a scary thing to actually like reject all of these
narratives that people have been putting on me for so long,
it's actually needed for you all to see me well.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
And I think that's why I really did enjoy your
interview with liverne Is because you seem to be able
to peel back into some of the things that were
actually touching her. Even just the way that she spoke
about the love she's experienced. I felt so seen hearing
her talk about not just romantic love, but friendship love.
(57:01):
And however, having had any of this made her rich
right now. And I know it's so corny, but in
a system where only the rich man gets to play
all the games he wants, like the rest of us,
we just get time and we get love. And I'm
gonna make as much of both of those as possible.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
And she stayed on.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
She stayed on for so long with me after that,
to like, because that was also after Engineer Bay and
like all of the things, all the emotions, and she
was so she was encouraging me in a beautiful way
to be like and just reminding me like you're only
like thirty, you're about to be thirty two, Like, don't
(57:44):
like give up on this thing and love and finding
love in other forms right through friendship through romance, and
it was just really it was really really important.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
And I love that.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
I'm never gonna forget that at all. I'm never gonna
forget that.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
That's such an important My mom would we were real poor.
We were real, real poor, like our fridge brokes, so
we used to cooler because we couldn't afford to get
it fixed.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
But she always said we're rich in love.
Speaker 3 (58:08):
And I used to be so annoyed because I was like, Mom,
love doesn't pay the bills. No, love sustains you when
the bills can't be baby.
Speaker 1 (58:15):
Love doesn't pay the bills.
Speaker 4 (58:16):
But listen, what kind of little kid were you that
you were thinking about bills?
Speaker 1 (58:19):
I would have been like, bitch, Mom, that's trauma.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
Love doesn't buy my Christmas present.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
That's trauma.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
And little kid was I that's called a parentified child.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
That's trauma. Yeah, I mean that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
I remember like falling and I busted my knee open,
and I knew i'd have to get stitches because I
could see the little fat blobs and I'm sobbing and
my Mom's like, oh no, does it hurt?
Speaker 1 (58:39):
And I was like, no, Mom, how are we going
to pay for this?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
Can you please, Jenna, can you please insert that clip
of Jamie Lee Curtis. And it's just like a trauma.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
It's a movie about trauma.
Speaker 8 (58:51):
It's a movie about trauma, trauma, trauma, rage, and trauma,
female trauma.
Speaker 6 (58:55):
This is what trauma looks like.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
It's trauma because that's literally what it is, unfortunately, and
it really does shape you in it when it happens
to you, and when you're younger, it's shapes.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Who you are and who you become as an adult.
Speaker 8 (59:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying you never thought about presence either, Like, damn,
we were poor as fuck too, But I was also like, Okay,
I know we're poor, you guys, but that doesn't give
Sanna an excuse to not get me a fucking a
game boy.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Ever, don't get me started on that, because.
Speaker 4 (59:24):
It is almost twenty and thirteen. Okay, I graduated high school.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Well, I went to school with really rich kids. Like
there's that new musical The Queen of Versailles coming out.
Speaker 6 (59:33):
The Queen of Versailles is the unbelievable true story of
the quest to build the largest house in America.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
It's literally about my friend's mom.
Speaker 3 (59:41):
Ah, like I had a friend who got a Maserati
for her sixteenth birthday. I had a friend who lived
next door to Shaq.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's super sweet sixteen He was on an episode for real.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
I mean, I grew up in a very wealthy area
as a very very poor kid, and like I remember
getting my mom got us like at Walmart, like an
old spy deodorant and like body wash, and I'm like,
I'm getting body washed from Santa. And these kids are
getting like, you know, new computers and new things. Like
I did have to grow up really young. But that's why,
(01:00:12):
like I encourage us to share our stories. Yeah, because
you know, yes, I'm a cancer trauma dumper and y'all
are going to keep things lighter than I will. But like,
I think it's really important for someone listening, I don't
know who they are, to hear themselves represented in the
stories of us and then say like look and they're
on a billboarding Times Square and they're living their dreams
hosting a show and they're winning reality TV shows and
(01:00:35):
people are getting their faces your winning people are getting
their faces you know, your face tattooed on their body. Eedie,
Like do you know what I mean? Like literally, I've
seen it and I'm like, why she's so ugly? No, like, no,
I'm with you, girl, I agree, but it's like we
you never know who you're going to touch. And when
I had nothing, I had my story and I build
(01:00:55):
my whole career off of that. And so I'm so
thrilled we have this place where we get to keep
telling our.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Story and we keep helping people tell their stories exactly
and creating a platform for people like Laverne Cox to
come and have conversations they've never had before in ways
they've never had them before, not because they didn't want to,
but because they weren't given the permission to HIKEI is
the permission, I will say.
Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
The next interview at Jubitch we laughing. Girl. I left that,
I was like, Okay, do I need.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
To send her money for this therapy session because I
feel like I should tip her.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
She's teaching masterclasses. Now you know she got a plan
of action.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
I can't wait for her one woman show and her
book that she's working on. All these things Laverne has
coming up. I'm so so excited because her legacy is
already cemented, but she's just building it and expanding it
in such beautiful ways. So I'm happy that we got
to talk about this interview a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Congratulations Ryan, help you enjoy dent. Yeah, great job. Thank
you for making us cry. Ah yeah, our.
Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
First That was the first interview ever of Hikey, and
no one better to do it than you write, and
you're a wonderful interviewer.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
You make people feel safe.
Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
And yeah, I think there will be more therapy sessions
just because I know, for one, every time I'm talking
on this the phone to you, I'm crying about something.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Stick around, y'all. We'll be back with our Hikey hike whatever.
Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
Okay, okay, y'all, it's time to get hikey Ben.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
What are you hikey about this week? So mine's kind
of funny.
Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
I'm hikey obsessed with TikTok And I know TikTok's been
out for a really long time. Wow, but I just
made one last week for the launch of our show,
and I'm obsessed with it because for some reason, the
algorithm has decided to serve me a lot of ex
gay content, like it's only serving me like queer through
like I ain't gay no more, and I think it's
because there's a clip where I said that as a joke,
(01:02:50):
are you not gay no more?
Speaker 6 (01:02:52):
Bro?
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Am I not gay no more?
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
And so I've been having a lot of fun trolling
people who think that they've been converted. And maybe that's
really mean, but I think conversion therapy is really messed up.
Like I remember this girl in drama, her dad tried
to tell me to go to Exodus Youth, which was
like a gay conversion thing in Orlando. And so I'm
having a lot of fun with TikTok thinking that I
am an ex gay, which like, actually maybe I kind
(01:03:17):
of am because I am dating a woman.
Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
I like how you're trolling X gays, Bitch, What do
you mean by trolling? Do you mean like sliding into
their dms, sending a few picks and being like are
you still no?
Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I mean just like commenting like okay, Sis, I'll see
at the club next year.
Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
You know what I'm saying. We'll startle back on that.
Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
You remember, like the calling all the basic bitches, calling
all the bait low Anthony.
Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Calling all the basic bitches, calling all the basic bitches.
There's a new announcement.
Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
You're basic no Anthony's an ex gay. Oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
That's actually really sad, you know it is. It's actually
really sad when you see like, oh, this like really
queer key and like he was dancing and just full
of joy and like now you flash forward to like
him now and all the joy has been like literally
sucked out of him unfortunately, and he's just quoting Bible verses.
Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
But yeah, I love that. That's your high key.
Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
Because I was there. Yeah, yeah, I was there. I
just reversed, you know, I went the other direction. I
started as the biblical boy like saying Leviticus twenty thirteen says,
do not lie with a manager, you lie with a woman,
for that as an abomination.
Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
I get this.
Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
And now I'm just like I'm an abomination and I
love it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
So that's my hig key. Who's next, Ryan? Yes, Oh
my god? My high key is literally okay.
Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
I don't know if I am like high key delusional
for being this obsessed with and just like that, but
I'm okay with it because here's the thing. There is
something about I was a late in life kind of
like Sex and the City girl.
Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
I did not get it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
I tried to watch that first season. I thought it
was a ah, this white ass New York.
Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
What is this? I don't know what this is? And
I just wasn't connecting to it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
But something happened, like later in life, around this time
where I really started to get into girls and insecure
and like started to like reach and I'm also about
to in July. I'm about to be the age that
Carrie was in the first season, and I am just
obsessed with and just like that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
One because it's just one of those shows.
Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Where it's like, if you understand, like it's not supposed
to be like this, like premiere level television, and the
way that Sarah Jessica Parker is talking about it on
this press release like she is like in can Lyons
talking about this. It's like full on, you know show
and have what it means to be Carrie and big
and how cathartic, and she's just.
Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Really going there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
I'm like, bitch, Michael Patrick King deserves prison for what
he's doing to that show.
Speaker 6 (01:05:45):
You better stup your pussy up.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Oh okay, okay, so what are you gonna do.
Speaker 6 (01:05:50):
I'm gonna step my pussy up.
Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
But I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
I'm obsessed with this so much, no matter what. I
will be watching it till the Wills falls off, just
like Gray's Anatomy, and I just spoiler I've seen this season.
So I literally watched the first season of this season
three that just came out again because I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
So obsessed with this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
So I hope you all are ready buckle up because
this season is going to be insane. Just saying I'm
high delusional about my love war and just like.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
That, honestly, me too, me too.
Speaker 4 (01:06:22):
I was watching it with my husband the other day
and we were both asking, like do and he gave,
people watch this because we think it's good, and then
we quickly found out, no, no, it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
It's no.
Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
It's like you just want to watch it because it's
it's it's literally low key giving train wreck, but also
like the emotional level, it's all really really like it's
the same thing that I feel about No Shape to
Paris Hilton when she was on that stage, I was like, Okay,
I thought you were doing a DJ set, but actually
you're giving pop star realness.
Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Did I just sign up for Scientology? Like am I been?
Now there we go. It's a slippery slip. It feels yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
You're like maybe I'm a part of this cult of mediocrity.
Maybe I love white Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Like, actually I get it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Maybe I understand why there's no black actors in X
y Z because we just need this white mediocrity.
Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
No, I mean, let us not go converting here.
Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
No, I know, and I do love that Ryan loves
the White Girl shows loves Girls starring Ben O'Keefe.
Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
One Girl. One episode is season What's six five?
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
No, the last season What's I was in the penn
ultimate episode.
Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
You're like, I shut that ship down. I literally, I
guess I ended it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
No, I mean we've talked about it in a in
a fake episode when we recorded a pilot. But I
was on an episode of Girls won a few a
few black people ever to speak on that show.
Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I ain't sleeping on ship except maybe Tom because he's
also boy. And I'd like to remind the three even
not to sleep on this friendship.
Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
And John appatavr in my acting career, so it's gotta
be a re nown.
Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
It will be in the book. There you go. Thank
you for the plug.
Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
My high key is that I am so obsessed with
the show Dying for Sex on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
I just started it.
Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
And I know that, like I can be pegged into
always talking about sex, pegged and.
Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
I wanted to say it, but I didn't.
Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Okay, well I can be pegged into it with enough lube,
that is. But I just love the show because it's
talking about so many relationships between sex and like our spirituality,
our bodies, like how we view ourselves. I just watched
this episode also spoilers where the main character Explorers trying
(01:08:41):
to top and like, what's that sort of mindset is like.
Speaker 6 (01:08:47):
Topping is a sacred skill? Okay, I was just learning
what terrifies you. I'm working with that until you come.
Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
Have you listened to the podcast that it's based Onward,
Not yet, because uh, this is the only podcast I
listened work, but I will say I will say it
is such a beautiful listen like it. It includes audio
of recorded conversations of Nicole and her friend of like
that was like hat died from cancer and you're hearing
(01:09:15):
her journal through this her experiences and Nicole is kind
of interviewing her and they're just like talking about these
moments and that's what's like translated into like the show,
and it's I remember I probably was listening to it
back in like twenty eighteen, and I would be like
boohooing from my way to work crying because it was
just so beautiful, which is it's been hard to watch
(01:09:36):
the show, but because the show is so good, but
it's bringing back all that emotion because it's so touching.
Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
It's so touching. Well, Dan, this is a two for one.
Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
Then, I guess I'm I'm hikey all about crying while
listening and crying while watching.
Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Oh gotch, I'm usually the crier. I guess I gotta
check this out. Amazing. Well, I think that's our show. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
Ahhh Now, honestly, y'all what show. Thanks Laverne for doing
our show. We love having her as a first guest
as historic and so next week, you know, stay messy,
Stam says, and of course stay hi.
Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Key, Bye bye died by.
Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Now, if you're high key loving the vibes, come hang
with us on Patreon.
Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
We're getting a.
Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Bonus conscience behind the scenes tea group chats.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Basically that's where you'll find the hike.
Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Key kai Key is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Outspoken Network. This show is created and
executive produced by Fenno Keep, Ryan, Mitchell, Evy Odley and
Spoke Media.
Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Our showrunner is Tyler Green. Our producers are Jenna Burnett
and Tess Ryan. Our video lead is Bo Delmore, and
our audio engineer is Sammy Syrech. Executive producers for Spoke
Media are Travis Slamont Ballinger and Aleah Tavicolian. Our iHeart
team is Jes Crime Chicch and Sierra Kaiser.
Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Our theme music is by Kayan Hersey and our show
art is by Work by Work, which photography by Eric.
Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Our marketing lead is Jerome Ware from shore Fire Media.
Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
At all the comments when they're saying like how hot
you are, I'm like, I am actually seeing the vision.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
I'm like, well it is pretty hot for a string
bean with buck teeth.
Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
I fuck
All right, what's up girlies? Now?
Speaker 2 (00:01):
If y'all love this show, I know you do, please
support the Patreon.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Yes, the patreons where we're posting all the bonus content
every week.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
There's going to be extra stegments behind the scenes. There's
going to be.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Special group chats, all sorts of special access stuff that
you can't get anywhere else.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Especially So Special. We've got a lot of fun stuff
for you and so so. So get in while the
water is warm.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Please that I don't water being warm? Yeah, what are you?
What are you even trying to say?
Speaker 5 (00:29):
Though?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Join our patreon guys.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I almost that hate crime yesterday and it was my.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Second hate crime. Did you deserve it? I actually did
in this time.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
I remember the last time I got called a faggot
was because I gotten a full on fight with this
entire Russian family on the plane.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, the crazy thing is, I'm gonna say what you
towed bench It could have happened to anyone.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's not because you're gay. It could have happened to anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's because you're annoying. Hey, friends, Happy Friday and welcome
to High Key.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm Bette O Keith, I'm Ryan Mitchell, and I'm me
the uply Now today we have so much to dive into.
We're talking identity activism with the one, the only, Laverne Cox.
But first let's have a high key key good morning,
Good morning, hey guys, good.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Afternoon, good evening.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
You know, wherever you are in the world, you're awake,
shout out to you, because I rather be in the
bed right now, not even gonna lie to you. I
got ready in a very rue Paul Shrag Race mini
challenge type of way, except for I don't look as
busted as y'all do when y'all do it.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
So you have producers, they're like also asking you about
your childhood.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Drama and if fact Queen brought it up.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Absolutely actually, but my producer is my mom texting me
all about our family drama.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Okay, that's real. How are y'all doing? I'm doing, guys.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I almost got hate crime yesterday and it was my
second hate crime.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Did you deserve it? I actually didn't this time. I
actually did it.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I was which part on the fagotry. It was on
the fagotree this time, fellow black person, So I think
it must have been the fagotory.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We see each other.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I was just like walking and I was talking to
my sister. I just got off a work meeting. Maybe
I was a little heated, so I was like in
the full gay storytelling mode and I'm just like walking
in some guys like you fucking faggot, and like comes
at me, and I'm just like I wasn't really fully
paying attention because I was in the story and so
I just kind of kept walking until he eventually stopped
(02:46):
following me. But it's like a little triggering because I
was actually attacked in a hate crime right after Jussey
Smollett did his fake hate crime. Okay, this was like
twenty nineteen, and.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So you also get that yesterday it wasn't a hate crime.
It was just an act of hate, bitch, Like it
was just some dude, And I was almost like hate
crime obvious, just being like, hey, I can tell you're gay,
and I'm affirming that fi deeply.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm serious.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Right now, we Dan is telling you, guys a really
triggering moment.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Because you hope to laugh or it's kind of sad, right,
I mean, like, look, first of all, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Like, correct, I am.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
A faggot being a fagot literally pays my bills.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm doing it as we speak, first of all.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Second of all, and like I love being queer, Like
it's not an insult to me. Like maybe when I
was fifteen, if you would have called me a faggot,
I would have been a little sad. Now I'm just like,
are we allowed to say this? Is I heart going
to be mad? I don't care. I love being a faggot.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm sorry. If Gail King can say faggot now, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Everyone what in the yeah after her allowed?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, And you know, I don't actually genuinely believe that,
but I do believe like that just also comes with
the territory for some reason of living in New York. Yeah,
someone on the on the bus or the trains and
they just looked over at you and be like, wow,
you spell very faggoty today.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, Like I'm in a Caribbean neighborhood, So like I
hear like bati boy, and I hear like you hear
these things. But like when I was actually attacked, we
were walking to the subway, my partner and I and
she had just sort of started transitioning and was wearing
like a wig. And I was like walking her to
the subway, just walking her to work, and like dropped
her off at the subway and as we were going in,
some guy was like, that's a fucking man. Whatever. Cool,
(04:37):
it's not but nice. I'm glad you think so whatever.
So as I walk out, he keeps.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Talking to me. I was like, will you just like
leave me alone? Like why do you have to say that?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
And then he punches me and he goes to pull
out a gun.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, and so I literally at the same moment, this
is a different moment.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
This is before Oh wow, this is what happened when
I was actually hate crime. Okay, you might need a move,
I ran, I mean this is down the straight for me. Well,
this is down the street from me. I like didn't
get on the subway for a year. I like was
afraid to go, you know, down the street. But I
ran into a grocery store. All the like guys at
the grocery store like came, you know, for defending me.
(05:16):
I felt it was really cute, a cute little moment,
but it was scary because it did just escalate from
voices to guns, right like from words to violence and
like that could have happened yesterday, do you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So it's just like, but.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Honestly, we live in fucking America, girl, that could happen
any day, like anywhere. Honestly, it's more likely for it
to happen to you without it being all tied to
your faggotry, Like you're just accidentally going to the wrong
bodega on the wrong day and someone's just like.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I, no, no, I disagree. I live in estate.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Like I feel really safe in New York. I think
that when we are unsafe is when we're on the street.
And I think sis women experienced this. I think a
lot of different folks of different genders and experiences where
it's like men feel the right to say whatever they
want and like, look, you can use your words how
you want, and.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I'm going to keep walking, but when you move.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Past words to physicality, that's too far, you know what
I mean? And like I was actually in the mood
to fight, so like I was proud of myself for
not getting in a fight because I really did kind
of want to fight yesterday.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well thank god, says girl. That's all I'm about, Like
I understand.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
I actually also believe it or not understand what it's
like to walk down the street as a queer person
as a.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Sometimes you yeah, yeah, the way you dress, I'm sure
you deal with shit all the time.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
No, no, actually ya keep talking. I'm gonna change. Actually
I don't, and that is to my part.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'm gonna change my outfit. I have to change. Okay, yeah,
change girl.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
You know look like literally the gayest people, and we
look way gayer than you. I cannot believe this bitch
is deciding to change midway through this is this is
so good for continuity.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Keep talking about my hay crime, Evie, It's all good.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I'm just proving that I'm that friend who's really sensitive
and the person to come talk to after direct trauma.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Exactly come right to ev oddly so she can actually
tell you, get the fuck over it, not even get the.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Fuck over it.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
It's just like, girl, he called you a faggot because
you're a faggot.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Stop being faggoty. And I didn't want to I want
to be faggotty.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
How did you change that quickly? Okay, Well, welcome bout.
My question is have you all experienced this?
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Are you asking me? Have I experienced a hate crime.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Not I mean, do you have you experienced a lot
of like queer phobia these days? Like I don't know,
I thought we were past this.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I mean same, if I'm being honest, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I've ever experienced a hate crime besides the ones that
I grew up, like in high school are like you know,
in middle school where your people are like trying to
I don't know, they found out about the word gay,
and they owe anything that doesn't feel like they're friends.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
They're calling you.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
That thing, and so like I've never actually knock on wood,
I've never actually been hate crimes, which I'm very blass
about that, right, And I think congratulations, you know, and he's.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Trying to make a rainbow. Happen to be honest, if
you sound like a soprano like.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
That, boys, par it's actually sirening the man they're like
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's the Jamaicans.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Are the Caribbean folks calling you bahti boy, But those
be the main ones trying to climb my back. Uh So,
no shame, no Shae, But no I haven't. And I
hate that that happened to you in a very serious moment,
you know, no one deserves that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You were just minding your business.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But I hope one day that you'll be able to
walk the streets and be in a in a safe,
you know, space where you don't have to you are,
your partner doesn't have to like encounter that, because that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I don't think I will know if we don't have
that in New York City, Like, where are we going
to have that?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
New York City is just the same as everywhere else now.
It's just the people who used to feel like they
had to shut up about the way they felt are
no longer shutting up.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
It's like the same shit everywhere. I get called a
faga everywhere I go. Where are y'all going?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
It's usually not to my family, It's like, usually not
to my face, legit. I remember the last time I
got called a fagot was because I gotten a full
on fight with this entire Russian family on the plane.
And you know what, I have some racist shit to
say about Russians right now, but I don't.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I don't know anything.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Stereotypes about you guys, except for you from a cold place.
So you know what to that whole family that fucked
with me stole one of my headphones, tried to hide
it under your seat, and also don't understand the idea
of lifting your fucking seat back up when we are
landing so my knees don't crash through your spine, I say, or.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I don't know how to curse in Russian.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well somebody, Well, the crazy thing is, I'm gonna say
what you chold being. It could have happened to anyone.
It's not because you're gay. It could have happened to
anyone because you're annoying.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I'm sorry, it's annoying. I'm sorry. No. On a real note, though,
I I do.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Feel as if I don't receive as much bullshit or
shenanigans walking down the street because of a lot of
the way I play chameleon adapting in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Like oh, you think you're straight passing.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
No, it's not about straight pass It's just about straight passing.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Because you're not listen, mama. I literally live on a
crack corner.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I straight pass enough to stay alive in a place
where people are shot every couple of months, where there's
a death of year at least has a bullshit, drug shenanigans,
sex work, and like that's what I'm talking about is
on a serious note, like we get to key because
we're inside my house or a hotel.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right now, y'all can see my nipples. Like if you
watch the YouTube there you go, Okay, but wait, can
I talk about yes please? Superstar?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
First of all, can we just talk for a second,
Like you're posting pictures with every famous queer and their mother,
You're on stages like, and then you're like casually texting
us in the side.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I'm like, you're a superstar when it comes to no.
I mean, it was a really fun time.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
If you don't know, I host wes Tollywood Pride Out
Loud Music Festival and I've been doing it, which is crazy.
I've been doing it for the past five years. I've
been hosting this music festival and it's only been four
years that it's been placed in West Hollywood, and every
year it just gets better and better. And this year
was like there was some behind the scenes chaos, but it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Was still incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Like Lizzo headlined on Saturday, Paris Hilton and Remy Wolf
headline on Sunday. Friday was Maren Morris, which first of all,
shout out to that country, like dawg because I had
no clue she could even like give pop star realness.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, shout out to that country doll. She was just so.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Great, and it was just really nice to be reminded of, like,
oh wow, like Pride is a really beautiful like family
re union, right, Like there's so many people there that
I haven't seen, or I get to invite people to
come see me like do my thing, and just like
I got a really beautiful compliment from someone that has
like come a lot of the year and they were like,
(12:01):
every time I see you on stage every year, I
know I'm gonna have a good time.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
They should keep you until this is over.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And I was just like, you kind of forget this thing, right,
Like you just kind of get into the mode of
just doing doing, doing, and you're like, oh, this is
not a check work, but like it's a really special
to be seen in a beautiful way this year where
people were like, oh, work, what are you doing? Like
I saw high key like the announcement, congratulations, like all
these really beautiful things like all that kind of happening
(12:28):
all at once, and it was beautiful. But I will
say this, I don't want to see another queer person
besides you two for the next three weeks over.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Flowers.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I'm glad that you got to like hear that, because
you know, even though you know it, to hear it
it's just a different thing.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
It gets you keep going.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And to hear that too when it's like, oh, Paris,
Hilton's here and all these people are here and like,
but you Ryan are the person who like they decided
to come up and say that too.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
That makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You got your flowers and put my trailer in near
Paris this year, which was so iconic and also shout
out to Carl Delvine. I got to see that chaos
of a white woman in real life, and I am.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Obsessed, yes, obsessed with her.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
She was like, I don't know if she just has
like the like servant ancester like spirit inside of her
because she was holding Paris's fan like she was like
making sure the lighting was good. I'm like, girl, tell
me you were an executive assistant without telling me you
are an executives sistant in the past life.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Is that like her professional gig now? Because she was
she was on season eleven. She was judging on Season
eleven way back in the day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yes, I told her you were we were doing the
show together. She was like, I love Evie.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
That line, bitch, that line cut. This is directly to you, Kara,
Like what the fuck? You helped Brooklyn win some bullshit
ball challenge. Actually she didn't win.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
See look at you. You don't even remember, y'all sees never mind,
I'd take it.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
I don't like the whole time was saying lovely things
about ev and she doesn't even remember.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Speechless phenomenal, one of my favorites of this whole show.
She was so excited and she was like, I have
something really exciting coming up, so I would love to
come on the show. So maybe stick around for that.
Carl will be on high key.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
You know, I'm not on your hustle in the streets
trying to get our guests please thank you.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
She represents that subtype of lesbian who's like really ready
and down to like be there for everyone in their life.
Because every time I've seen her in real life, she
is like making sure the lighting's good on her friend
selfies and stuff, and I'm like, you're a supermodel, Like
I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
She's a real one, and she looks very.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Regular, like no shade, She's very regular in person something
I have to.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Tell people, do y'all know, Like that's like the icon
like models.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Like there's this woman named Karen Elson and she's a supermodel.
She's been on the cover of many, many magazines. I
remember when I met her and I was like, what
do you do? And she's like, I'm a model. And
I was like, oh, like, have you ever done anything important?
And everyone like kind of laughs, and I'm like, oh what,
she looks really normal to me that I've done that
multiple times, Haley class. I was like walking down the
(15:01):
street with her, I was like, that girl on the
billboard looks just like you. And she's like, that is
me and I was like, no, that's a Victoria's Secret model, honey.
I just like I'm so oblivious to that. Like I'm
like that when I meet all sorts of people I
met that. I'm not gonna say it because I don't
even know. I'm not going to say that. Never mind,
never mind?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Are you I've never seen bid? Like try him?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I'm like, wait, actually that's for the book. She hasn't
seen your plan. You know, she got a take your
plans she's working to do.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
You're all in it too, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, can I just say, can we really quickly our
first episode is out? What was some of the responses
that y'all got before we get out of this highky key.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I feel like the biggest response I got was some
guy walked down the street and called benefaggot what.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
We saw the billboard a Time Square? I know what
you are, bag it?
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, basically pretty much that I've gotten, like such an
amazing respond So many people listened, and I guess, like
I for some reason, I just wasn't expecting some of
it's like straight white guys in my dms, like I
really enjoyed that what you were saying about, And I
was like, okay, okay, I guess we're doing something. And
then we got to go see the billboard. Evie and
I were in person. Ryan, of course you were hosting Pride,
(16:30):
but we got to FaceTime you and just like to
see our faces up in Times Square was a really,
really amazing thing. And I'm so excited because we're just
getting started, you know, like now we're just getting started,
and now we need to get into the fun parts.
Because that first episode's a little different. It's kind of
like an introduction to us, and now like we're doing interviews, Ryan,
(16:51):
you're doing the first interview. I don't want you set
that up.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It was such a big deal. Actually, do you want
to talk about it? Yeah? I mean it's really cool.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I'm very excited about like this part of the show
because this is what really like attracted me to doing
this is being able to talk to really cool people,
ones that we've been always fans of, but also new
voices and new perspectives. And Laverne Cox is someone who
is an absolute legend. Correct, you know you know her
from being Sophia on More just New Black. It made
(17:20):
her the first trans Emmy nominated actress. She's an activist
and advocate so much. And we this conversation, y'all, we
talked about so much. I mean, we talked about her
proximity to whiteness compared to her other black transistors. We
talked about fascism that pops up a few times. Godule Literally,
she's just in an era where she's no longer holding back,
(17:40):
and I'm really excited for you all to hear this
fresh and vulnerable perspective that she is now giving the world.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
When we get back Laverne Cox will be in your
ears and on your screens see you in a minute.
I'm so happy you are here. You are our first
guest on High Key. So this is a very beautiful moment.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
There's some times when it's important to say yes, and
it feels when it feels like the energy is there
and we can make it work with the schedule.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
If you remember this, but I DMed you because I
got press screenings to watch Clean Slate.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I mentioned it in literally hours.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Like the same day, because I also am a media
consultant glad I work at the GMI and we were
doing a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I got to work with the team, the cast, you know,
George Wallace tell me Hopkins.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I got to help media train them and like really
be a part of this beautiful experience that Clean Slay
was because we hadn't had this sort of level of
intersectional storytelling ever. I mean, and there has been, but
it just feels like we hadn't had any recent history,
and so it was really beautiful to be a part
of that. I want to know obviously, your connection to
(19:01):
Clean Slay, because you've described the cancelation. You described it
as devastating, right, And I wondered did it feel so devastating,
because it did feel like that story was very personal
to you, and you were also a part of being
a co creator, like you were a part of Abduction,
part of this.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I mean, I've had shows canceled before I Doubt. I
was on a show on CBS I'm called Doubt and twenty.
We shot it in twenty sixteen and premiered in twenty seventeen.
It's canceled after this second episode. We shot all thirteen episodes.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
That was rough.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I mean, that was devastating too, because we worked so hard.
But it was different, Like, literally a week later I
booked a pilot and I was literally a week after
we were canceled, I was packing to go to Vancouver
to shoot a pilot. So it was just it was
a very different experience. It's different when you are hired
onto a show as opposed to you meet a guy
(19:54):
named Dan Ewen at Soho House like seven eight years ago,
and you start talking about a show, and you get
ideas and you brainstorm and you start like creating it together,
and like it's based loosely on your life and you
conclude stories from your life, and you're hiring and you're
casting and interviewing costume designers, and like you're producing and
(20:19):
you're in, you're negotiating, and you're pitching to networks. So
it was it was my baby, it was my baby,
It's Dan's baby, you know, And so it's hard when
you're it's like, it feels like your baby's rejected, but
I don't. The public didn't reject Clean Slate. So my
feedback I've gotten from this remkes me want to cry.
All everyone who's watched it has been really really beautiful,
(20:43):
like the people and then even he's hearing like, oh,
my mom was watching Clean Slate. I'm like, where's your
mom from. She's like North Carolina. I was like, did
you tell her to watch She's like, no, she just
watched it. And she's like goes, she's a church woman
from the South.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
I'm like, this is needs to be seeing it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
That's literally my story. My mom lives so I'm from Nashville.
She lived to South Carolina at the time, and she
turned that show on and watched it, and she's very religious.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
It's that's why I was connected to it.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
From the jump, Like it's it just is so different
than anything that we saw. And then of course the
cherry on top being it was a part of the
Norman Lear legacy.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
What I understand is that it's a miracle to get
a TV show produced, because I've tried to get a
lot of them produced and they haven't and somehow, and
I'd given up on Clean Slate because it was years
and we were in development at places, and we fell
out of development at a few different places. Had yes,
it's that turned into nose, a lot of nose, and
so I just let it go. And then I also
was like, oh, they're not buying trans stories. They are
(21:38):
not interested in telling trans stories now. And this was
years ago, like six years ago, and I was like,
I need to pivot. And then we got picked up
on Norman's We found out that we got picked up
on Norman Layer's hundredth birthday, which was pretty special, and
we got to make it and people get to see
it still and have the experience of a show and
(22:01):
maybe see themselves and their families in the show and
try to reconcile their religion with you know. So it's
there and the work is there and for people to
consume if they choose to and hopefully laugh and be
moved by And that is that is a gift.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
It is, it's a gift.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Do you remember getting the yes, I was just in shock.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
I remember just being like I thought this was dead,
Like I didn't, and I don't. I've learned in show
business not to believe something is happening until it's on
the air, not even when you're doing it, like not
even like we were in Savannah shooting, I was just
in the work. I was doing my work, you know,
I had the first time I actually worked my acting
(22:48):
coach every single day of shooting, and I was just
in the work until it's on the air. You don't,
you don't. They're nothing certain. So I've just learned and
that that's the case. And then also what I have
to as I write my book and think about my
life and career over the past like decade or so.
When Orange happened, Orange was so Orange's New Black, it
(23:12):
was so insanely successful. And that's a show that it
is like that that the public loves and watches in
en mass and then it's critically a claim that leads
to like Immy nominations and multiple magazine covers like that
kind of show. BID's moment is really rare, and so
(23:34):
I have to like I've been like, Okay, you need
to put all this in perspective, Like I mean, I
had certainly before Orange, I had twenty years in New
York of studying and like you know, barely making you
waiting tables, working in restaurants, and not really being able
to make a living as an actor. And so I
had a break out moment that was.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
Was really I think in retrospect, you I.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Want to see a doctor, you can't go to the
clinic unless it's in emergency.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
I'd like to report an emergency.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
I think Oranges New Black was probably a huge cultural
moments to it, but I think.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
It probably is an understatement.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I mean it was huge, Yeah, literally create I mean
not to say it created Netflix, but it did. Like
it was two shows that were on that that platform.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
And I've heard or just a New Black and more
people watching us and how the Cards no shade because
I live for House of Cards. But yeah, and so
I think, like when you have that kind of success
with a show, and then you know that's the that's unusual.
What you know, what happened? With Clean Slay and other
(24:42):
projects that's more typical. So it's about key having all
these things in perspective, and I'm I'm insanely ambitious and
I always have been, and I I want to be successful.
But like it's like, how do you measure success? Is
it about some extern a metric of ratings or you know,
(25:03):
bank and that in show business, that is part of it,
like how many you know, what's how many followers, how
many viewers?
Speaker 6 (25:09):
All that stuff.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
By the way, the Red Carpet we are, like, I
think our Grammys was the last Grammy show was the
highest rates since twenty seventeen. The People's Choice Award Red
Carpet like was like seven times the viewership of the
year before. Like, so we had ratings on me. Yeah,
and I'm proud of that because that's that's important. It's important.
The business part of it is really important. But it's
(25:30):
really interesting and tricky being a black trans woman in
show business at this moment, in this cultural moment, not
just in America but all over the world where there's
just a divestment from trans stories from trans people. There's
like an attack on trans people on a policy level
(25:52):
from the state, state, sanctioned like discrimination that like we've
never seen before, and college is in university are like
being defunded, and they're scared. So they're like, you know
a lot a huge part of my business. When Orange
started with college lectures, I was I've spoken in hundreds
of colleges and universities.
Speaker 6 (26:11):
And now I can't.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
I never thought, because we did so well there and
professors loved me.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What you mean you can't, Like people are there saying.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
No, we have not been able to book a college gig, like,
oh wow. When the strike happened a couple of years ago,
I reached out to my agency and I was like,
you know, I was like, oh, I'm willing to cut
my fees, you know, because my fee had gone up
a little bit. You know, your fees go up, and
college is every college can't afford you know what we were,
you know, you know what the quote was at the time,
(26:41):
and so I was like, I'm willing to cut my
speaking fee in half. And I miss the connection to
young people too. I really really love it. When I
was doing it too much, it was, you know, just
because I was hustling and trying to make money and
get out of debt.
Speaker 6 (26:53):
And those first few years.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
You know, I started twenty fifteen debt free, which was
like amazing, and start like, you know, really being able
to save for retirement and all this stuff. Twenty fifteen
I would have been like forty two forty three, which
is intense, you know, but that's life. I'm waiting to
work for tips most of my adult life, and you know.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
What, where is their saving? Where am I saving?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Shout out to us that service industry is nothing to
play with.
Speaker 6 (27:20):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
I have deep respect for people in service dustry. Be
nice to people, please and tip them. So I'm just
really grateful. But it's what's happening. I'm shocked, but I'm not.
I just always thought I'd be able to go back
to college and universities because I was just so loved.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
There and that was like your fallback plan in some ways.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Yeah, professors loved me, the students loved me.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
We've had packed auditoriums everywhere I went, standing ovations. Administrators
loved me, the professors loved me. I was referencing to
Heeial they were teaching. It just went really well. And
that work is completely gone now, and it's it's kind
of shocking. And obviously corporations have divested to and so
(28:03):
it's just okay, what does.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That do for you when you are trying to want
I mean, our type of livelihoods are your next gig
and you, I mean, of course, have been able to
set yourself up where you have a little something in
the bank or like to save a little bit and
you can kind of go a little bit, right But I.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Do have a fashion habit though that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
We'll talk about muglair in a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But I do think it's it's what do you do
when you're realizing, Okay, this isn't the same. There is
a shift happening in a real, real way. And I
don't know what the next ten years look like if
we keep going with the way that the state of
the culture is and this political climate.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
I mean, there's a few things I think about.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
I think about my own survival and livelihood, right Like,
so I've had to make some lifestyle changes, right just
to because I'm making less money, you make adjustments in
terms of my own survival, fear and how to pivot,
you know, I think like show business in life is
about the pivot.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It seems like you're what you're able to do and
go on shows in a mainstream way and talk about
these issues are sometimes different from even like some of
your like sisters in community who also have platforms. Right, Like,
it seems like you're able to say the thing that
we all are needing, but like if they say something,
it's like it's not reciprocated in the same way. And
(29:30):
I have you ever thought about that in the ways
that it seems like you know, I mean, I think
of someone like Angelic Ross, right, Angela Cross is a powerful,
like powerhouse voice I've seen just from the outside looking
in the not to compare, but you have an ability
to be able to still exist in the room in
the ways that she may not able to if she's
(29:52):
like blowing the whistle.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Angelica hasn't had the access that I've had. She hasn't
had the access that I've had the Orange is New
Black platform, because that show was so huge. It gave
me a really really big platform that a lot of
my trans siblings have not had. Angelica is indeed brilliant,
But also I think what I think a huge part
(30:16):
of my story, and I've said this before publicly, is
I went to for high school. I went to the
Album School of Fine Arts and I was a creative
writing and dance major there, and so I not only
was I, you know, going to a school with mostly
white kids from affluent backgrounds, I was living with them
twenty four to seven and that was a wonderful I
(30:38):
love being surrounded by all the artistic disciplines and I
love I love painting, I love classical music, I love theater,
I love art. But one of the lessons I was
I also learned at the Album School of Fine Arts
that I didn't know I was learning was learning to
make white people comfortable. And I mean, I think there's
like different levels of that because with my a lot
(31:00):
of my survival we have fight, flight or freeze, right
in terms of survival, we also have tend in befriend
and tendon befriend was like one of my survival strategies
in relationship to my mother, and I think we're in
relationship to life. And Angelica is more of a fight girl,
you know, she's like and so there's a piece around
around whiteness and palatability, around whiteness and making white people comfortable,
(31:25):
and Angelica, I know, is not interested in that. She
is certainly she's not, and I don't think we need
I don't think we should.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Be either period. I think we should be.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
But that just generationally for me and because of my background,
that became something that for survival, I just it's almost
a default thing of like making trying to like diffuse
the befriend trying to defuse potential conflict, and trying to
(31:57):
meet people where they are.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
How do you break through that though?
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's really tricky, So it's we shouldn't have to be
in a space of making white folks comfortable.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
That shouldn't be the prerequisite.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
And even when you can, it still doesn't mean that
they're not going to still call you angry.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
I'll never forget.
Speaker 5 (32:18):
Early on, I had gone on CBS this morning and
it was the first time Gail King had interviewed me.
And this was early on, so it was the early period,
like I think its twenty fourteen, and I was still
having to like, you know, make corrections with people around
language and how to talk with and about trans people.
And part of my activism too early on was like
(32:38):
we had to change the conversation with and about trans
people if I was going to have a career, like
if I was if people were going to be able
to see my humanity and my talent, we needed to
move the conversation away from like what people's genitalia is
and like what happens in a gender transition, Like that's
like that's dehumanizing. And I had this moment with Gail
(32:59):
and she said, well, you were born a boy, and
I was like a sign mail at birth And I
just said a sign mail at birth and then you know,
just a little correction. And a black trans woman I
was still on Facebook at the time, a black trans
woman I knew wrote me on d n me on
Facebook and.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
Said she was hearing she's such a gug.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
She was hearing from a lot of white gay men
that I was coming across as angry on TV and
I needed to pull it back.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And she was thinking she was giving you like advice,
like let me.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Almost like the white gay said the black trans woman
to like get me together.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
Like it was.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
It was such a goof, And I wish I had
this DM because like I changed my Facebook from a
personal account to like a business account or whatever.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Saw everything you lose all your dms. God, I wish
I still had that DM.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
It was such a gag Like that was like it
was such a gag. I mean, do you think about
the meta of an ad She literally had the audacity,
like the audacity to say these white she said, white
gay men are saying that you're coming across is angry
and like it didn't compute to her how like effed
(34:11):
up it was that she was like she was being
sent or she felt compelled.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
That was just that was deep.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
So, I mean the reality and I think what folks
everybody should understand is that as much as I tried to, like,
you know, navigate respectability politics in the beginning of my
career when Orange broke through and I felt the pressure
of like, I'm the first transperson people may be coming
in contact with through the media, and I can't say
(34:39):
the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, all of
that trying to be respectable did not keep our rights
from being.
Speaker 6 (34:47):
Distripped away from us.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Right, So respectability of politics is not it period period.
Making white people making the dominant culture comfortable is not it.
In terms of if you're interesting liberation and justice, if
you want to just you know, sort of you know,
or if you're interested in your own career and your
own self advancement, then maybe, But if you're interested in
justice and freedom for marginalized people, that's that's not the tea.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
That's not it.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
But I want to also try to maintain access and
not piss too many people off because I have a
lot of critiques that I just keep because I think
I need to try to maintain some access from my community,
for my people. You know, it's like it's bigger than me,
Like I did have. I had a moment on Transliberation
Day when I was in LA a month or so ago,
(35:35):
and it was the first time in a speech where
I cursed where I called like a politician out by name,
and it was raw.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
How did that feel?
Speaker 6 (35:45):
It felt? It felt good, It felt good, and it
felt but.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
It was also like, in this moment, after we've had
a fascist takeover and seeing what we've been seeing, it's
we can't it's not it's no time to be, it's
no time to be. You can't equivocate. You have to
we have to call a thing a thing.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
We can.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
We have to say it plainly, and we have to
say it in a way that it's going to transmit
to the people where we understand clearly and you know,
me cursing and me just reading. I was, I was,
you know, my kitchen table, Laverne that wants to read down.
Speaker 6 (36:23):
She came out like, I, I, you.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Know, I dragged Gavin you some I rag and he
just I dragged him.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
But know, some girl, what can I talk to you?
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Like I talked to my girlfriends?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
What the fuck with that?
Speaker 6 (36:41):
I've never done that before, you know, publicly?
Speaker 5 (36:44):
It felt, it felt right, it felt good and what
it was beautiful that I had. There was an audience
of LGBTQ plus people that I was in front of
me who needed this and afterwards even some of the
things I said people again there was teaching. The speech
was with three to five minutes. It was thirty minutes. Girl,
I had a lot to say. And a woman came
(37:04):
up to me and before afterwards and said, you know,
I had never thought about it because I apparently doing
the speech.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
I said, where we are now.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Is that the Democrats have become Republicans and the Republicans
have become fascists. Yeah, and just that thing that I've
just been aware of for years, that was an aha
for her. And then I talked about Polly Murray and
someone because I was I talked about Ron DeSantis and
how he's banning books and how you know, and how
he He's like, you know, what does queer theory have.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
To do with AP African American history? Which just I
don't know what that.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Just that was years ago, and that press conference lives
rent free in my head because intersectionality for me is
it's a mental health like me understanding even beyond just
a macro political understanding of the world, just like a
personal understanding of how I experienced the world. Without an
(37:55):
intersectional lens, I would be so lost. And he said that,
you know, they're talking queer theory and AP African American
what does queer theory have to do with AP African
American history? And that sounds like pushing an agenda. And
then he said and the next thing things like intersectionality,
that sounds like an agenda, not history. And I was
just like, and I went off, I'm like, maybe you know,
(38:18):
when we talk about black history, we often talk about
the March on Washington where doctor Martin Luther King made
the iconic I have a dream speech that's pretty much
in every Black history by resting and by arresting, Yes,
a gay black man organized that Mars.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
The first man.
Speaker 7 (38:33):
Is that we have effective civil rights legislation, no compromise,
no Philip buster, and that it includes public accommodations SESUS housing.
It's a great education FAPC and the rights to vote.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What should you say?
Speaker 5 (38:56):
That's intersectionality James Baldwin, is Madston Hughes Nikki do you girl?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I mean?
Speaker 6 (39:03):
And Polly Murray, who a lot of people don't know.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
That's why you have to have the queer thing, because
it's intersectional, and because the way it functions in our
lives because of homophobia by arresting almost didn't have the
opportunity to do that. Polly Murray coined the term Jane
Crow because Polly understood, as an assigned female person at
birth who was black, that racism was functioning in their
(39:30):
life in a way that was different because they were
perceived as a woman, and that there was a way
like I can't just understand what's happening to me if
I just look at race. I can't just understand if
I look at it through gender or sexuality. It's all
these things operating simultaneously at once in my life. And
so it's it's so I get so upset banning books.
(39:55):
First of all, I mean Tony Morrison is one of
the books the're banded Belle hooks like these are people
who have like changed my life and shifted my consciousness.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
So like a lot of my favorite authors are being banned.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
But the anti intellectual thing, you have to just call
it what it is, so that people understand that this
is fascism, and that so much of this project of
the misinformation, the alternative truths, the curriculums that they want
to teach at colleges they want.
Speaker 6 (40:26):
They don't want us to be educated.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
They don't want it because an educated populist is is
going to push back against all this stuff. They rely
on people being uneducated or misinformed or so. And one
of the huge reasons I'm here is also because of education,
because my mom was a teacher, Because I learning and
curiosity and critical thinking, it's just literally power.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's the one thing that I remember growing up, my
mom telling me she also works at higher education. Seem
you actually, And so it's so frustrating that we can
you to in a lot of ways through this fascism,
we're being gasled to believing something that's completely dishonest, absolutely
and it's so important to have you in the room
(41:13):
leading and adding your voice into this space because you're
I'm so happy you're also at this point in your
career and your life where you're just saying the thing
and it feels really I mean, it looks great on you,
by the way. I'm just saying that like that. There's
no not saying you were performing before, but there's no
performance now. It's literally like we're fighting for our lives
(41:34):
right now.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
And that's really why, because it's girl. When we're talking fascism,
you can't because there's no negotiation anymore. You can't negotiate
with someone who wants you dead, who doesn't think you
have the right to exist. So we need to get
really really real about what's happening, understand, tell the truth
about it, and then get strategies together. And I really
(41:55):
believe so much those strategies are within community. The government,
the politicians are going to do it for the corporations
aren't going to do it for us, But we can
do it for each other. And so I think that's
a huge reason for me about why true telling and
having the courage to do that so we can like
level set for our survival because when we can and
(42:15):
will survive this, everybody might not though, So if we
want to survive this fascist moment and come out on
the other side, we it's got to be each other.
It's got to be in community.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I want to end this because one, like I said,
you were our first guests. So when I tell you
eight this is such a great conversation. I could talk
to you for like seven more hours, and I hope
we've become I could.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Talk for seven more hours unfortunately, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
We continue to be friends. But I want to end
with a new tradition that we're doing on the show.
What are you high key about right now? What are
you hig key? Feeling high key?
Speaker 5 (42:53):
I'm just feeling hopeful about art and creativity. There is
a wonderful a few new scripts that have come across
my desk. And had a meeting with this amazing directory
yesterday and it's a film that eight years ago was
brought to me and it went away and now it's
been rewritten and it's so good. And I was just
(43:14):
so excited about I've just been manifesting as an actor
like I.
Speaker 6 (43:18):
There's so much good.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Work out there for that actors are doing that's so inspiring.
I'm particuarly thinking of em a stone and poor thing,
and I'm just like I wanted something where I'm challenged,
where I could transform, and the physicality, the vocal. There's
so many different elements of acting. There's the emotional life,
but then there's the physical parts and maybe there's a
(43:40):
vocal elements of the character, and this character that the
new version of this character in the script is like
everything I've been manifesting and wishing for.
Speaker 6 (43:49):
So I'm just kind of.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Like excited, but I'm also like, girl, you're going to
have to work. This is not it's not going to
be easy, like this movie. It's probably gonna be the
hardest thing I've done, and I'm going to have to
clear the schedule and like commit in a way that
I've never committed before. And I'm insanely excited about that.
(44:11):
So I think that, like I'm high key about like
even when things seem dire and like there's no hope,
you continue to manifest and you continue to be grateful.
And that doesn't mean that you don't have to keep
doing your work, but turning it over, I don't have
to carry all of this by myself. There is there
(44:33):
is an energy, there is a there's a God, a
higher power that can carry this with me and hallelujah.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
Even without a man.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
There are friends, like real friends, girlfriends who love me
and see me and got me.
Speaker 6 (44:48):
Oh, who have me.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
But I'm I'm so grateful for those little I mean,
they're big things, but they're just it's.
Speaker 6 (45:02):
The love, the love.
Speaker 5 (45:03):
That I have in my life from my friends and
from my God, and and the love I have for
my work and uh and the faith that.
Speaker 6 (45:11):
I have in.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
And God and the universe and some people some people,
and I still haven't given up on humanity yet.
Speaker 6 (45:25):
But thank God, there's like think, I mean, I think
that like knowing love.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Is like real love, love that like changes you where
you are deeply seen and known by maybe a friend first,
maybe you know. I did an intimacy workshop for years
with a group of people where I got to sort
of practice intimacy.
Speaker 6 (45:45):
And experiencing love.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
And an unconditional love is everything and it and the
and when it's romantic. My ex was that until it wasn't.
And so I feel I can take a break from
all of it because I I know that song from
the AIGs.
Speaker 6 (46:02):
I don't know what love is. I know what love is.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
I know what love is in my like in my
not just intellectually. I know it in my body. I
felt it like I felt romantic love and passion and
that soulmate thing. I feel it with my girlfriends when
we sit around a table and listen to each other
and kiki.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
And cackle but support and cry together.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
I know love, and I'm high key about knowing love,
and that love has always been for my art too.
That is what has gotten me through my life when
I didn't know, like you know, parental love or friendship
love or romantic love. I knew love for my art.
I knew that and that passion. So I know what
(46:45):
love is. I'm high key about love and love is
everything it really is, and it can be for music
or art or like that. Love gets me through a
really good friend like friends like I haven't.
Speaker 6 (47:01):
I've been is.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
My romantic life has been messy, but my friendships haven't.
I have friends who like they keep getting messy friends.
I've been good about like picking friends. I've been very protective.
Speaker 6 (47:12):
There.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
The romantic stuff trickier, but it's but I mean, it's
hard for most women. It's really hard for most Black women,
really hard for successful black.
Speaker 6 (47:23):
Women, and then at being trans and famous to that.
Speaker 5 (47:27):
I'm blessed that I've known the love that I have,
and because I've known it, I can recreate it like
I right now I'm thinking about I feel it. I
don't know if you can feel it coming from it.
I hope you can that like I feel like the
most feeling like seen. I love that where you're deeply
seen and known and and it's reciprocated. Okay, card, this
(47:50):
is the last thing I'm gonna say. Brene Brown's love
definition I see if I remember off the top of
my head. Brene Brown defines love as long. She says,
we cultivate I love. To cultivate love when we allow
our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen
and known and honor the off that offering with trust, respect, kindness,
(48:12):
and affection. Love is not something we give or get.
It's something we nurture and grow a connection that can
only exist between two people when it exists within each
of them. We can only love others as much as
we love ourselves. Come on, RuPaul, she doesn't say that,
Oh shame blame, disrespect.
Speaker 6 (48:35):
I'm going to stut this off. This part is so important.
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and then withholding of affection damages
the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive
these injuries when they are acknowledged, healed and rare, rare.
Speaker 6 (48:59):
You can go. It's not brand bounds. You can google that.
That yeah, that and that is the definition.
Speaker 5 (49:09):
But when you know it in your body, that's the
thematic work in my therapy. When you sense it into
your body. Oh honey, I know what love is.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I think this is where we should end it. I
think ending it on this note of love. And I'm
so grateful to have experience this with you. And I
can't thank you enough. Thank you, thank you for being you,
thank you for your lights, thank you, and thank you
for believing in hope and in love.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
Truly, I do, I do? Amen?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
All right, that was wonderful, Ryan, Oh my gosh, I'm
sitting over here trying not to cry like like la
Verne did.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I know right, she did get quite emotional. But it
was really nice.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
I think as someone who like always been a fan
of hers, I wasn't expecting the show like our conversation
to be so retrospective and kind of go into these
depths of moments like I really wasn't expecting that at all,
but I think she showed up for context. You know,
we did this virtually, and she showed up very in
a like in a mood of some sorts that felt
(50:20):
like very like ready to pour it all.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
And I'm happy that she feels safe enough with me
to do it. And I've I've had.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
My favorite moments, but I wondered, kind of what were
some moments that like resonated with y'all. You know, EVI,
what what kind of hit you are being? Whoever wants
to go first start?
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I think, I mean, she touched on a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
One thing that I definitely related to was her conversation
about trying to make people feel comfortable, specifically like white
people and kind of respectability politics same. It was interesting
because I share a lot of the same trajectory growing
up that she did. I was surrounded by white people.
(51:04):
I went to art schools and this and that, and
I learned the skill of trying to make people around
me feel comfortable before I ever knew it was something
I was doing. And unfortunately something that I really related
to her talking about Angelica Ross is that I was
never good at ith. Yeah, I could never one hundred
(51:26):
percent convince somebody that I'm a good, nice, normal, respectable
African American person.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
I relate to that so much because I was good
at it. I was really good at it, and I
got so burned by it that I feel like I
have now swung over to the other extreme and like
I've always been a disruptor, and I love Angelica Ross
like we've always been kindred spirits in that way. But
there is something about like navigating these spaces. Like I
(51:54):
also think of Janet Mack coming up in that same
sort of space of Laverne and Angelica Ross. Janet, we
don't know where Janna is. She's kind of had to
hide away because you know in the cut, Yeah, because
you look, she spoke out about really real things that
she experienced. I think a lot of folks have spoken
out about being in the Ryan Murphy universe and what
that has meant and been like in their lives, and
(52:16):
it was just like, it's hard to it's it's wild
to hear Laverne kind of talk about that because she
has done a really great job. But I am starting
to see that shift. Like I had seen the video
of her speech, and I was like, oh, like, LaVerne's
not like speaking in the Netflix speak anymore.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
She's like ready to say the thing out loud.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I asked her about that because I think it's so interesting,
you know. I think of the India Wars, I think
of the Angela Crosses, I think of Hope, Giselle, who
are They're out here really kind of like doing the
work and saying the thing that has clearly impacted their
career specifically. And I feel like I have also kind
(52:57):
of sat in the space where I've never or needed to,
Like I never felt the need to tell myself down
or be something acceptable for white people. But I do
navigate white spaces quite often, and I think I know
how to do it through the ways that I grew
up as well. And I also know how to show
up and say the things that I want to say,
(53:17):
but do it in a way that is like accessible
and humorous and so like to hear her kind of
talk about that, because I had always assumed that.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
She had either some trauma or like she had.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Some like experiences of like doing it out of survival
because she's like, I'm trying to keep this access so
there is someone in the room. However, I'm like, how
do you free yourself from that survival kind of mentality,
because at the end of the day, they're going to
remind you that you're a black person or a black
trans woman any moment they get if you step out
(53:51):
of line. So it's like, if you're worried about impacting
your financial ability or your place, and when it comes
to access, it's like, how how do you kind of
get out of that mode? And I think she's in
this space where she's like, honestly, nobody cares.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
I'm fighting for my life.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Our sisters are fighting, We're all this community is fighting
for our lives right now. I don't care who I'm
making happy and who I'm not making happy. And I
think that's really.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
Powerful, and it's powerful because of where she came from.
Like I first started talking to la Verne Cox before
or just the New Black I remember when she was
like sex worker number two on lan on her SVU
and I sent a message that on Twitter that was like,
I think it's so cool to see black trans representation.
I can't wait until you don't just have to play
sex workers or something like that. And look it is
for I wanted to say, for so al Ryan, you
(54:36):
bringing Leverna on for our first interview means a lot.
That we are centering a black trans woman like that
means a lot, And I'm really really glad that you
did it. And I think what she also accomplished in
this interview was like a level of vulnerability that I
always dreamed our guests would have, because not only is
she talking about now how she navigates for her life
(54:56):
at this point and like the balance between proximity and
power and survival.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
But then she also like went really deep. She talked
about her bag.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, and I was kind of laughing because she was
talking about her public speaking career and before the pandemic,
that was a huge part of my business was it
was how I paid most of my bills with public speaking,
and often I would be getting speeches that like people
passed on because they couldn't afford her fee. And we
did a pilot episode where we all kind of opened
up about financial things that we had been through.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
And I think that folks are often really afraid to
be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
And to show like it's not easy being black and
queer and building a career on it no matter who
you are, even when you're the stars. And so I
really appreciated the vulnerability that you were able to bring
out of her in that moment, and I think that's
going to really help a lot of people realize that
it's okay to talk.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
About things and not be afraid of not looking perfect.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
And I think about you easy, it's okay to be poor. Well,
And that's the thing I actually kind of thought about
you because that video that you posted, like when you
were like really in financial like you know, in a
financial bind, and you were really like you were crying and.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
You were right still there.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
I mean, but there's something so beautiful about existing in
that space and like doing it publicly because I think
so many people just they already have their story and
their narrative that they have of you based off of
what you're posting and what you've been able to do,
and like you talking about that at that moment is
it really does kind of open stuff up for a
(56:27):
lot of people to really be like, Wow, it's not
a scary thing to actually like reject all of these
narratives that people have been putting on me for so long,
it's actually needed for you all to see me well.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
And I think that's why I really did enjoy your
interview with liverne Is because you seem to be able
to peel back into some of the things that were
actually touching her. Even just the way that she spoke
about the love she's experienced. I felt so seen hearing
her talk about not just romantic love, but friendship love.
(57:01):
And however, having had any of this made her rich
right now. And I know it's so corny, but in
a system where only the rich man gets to play
all the games he wants, like the rest of us,
we just get time and we get love. And I'm
gonna make as much of both of those as possible.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
And she stayed on.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
She stayed on for so long with me after that,
to like, because that was also after Engineer Bay and
like all of the things, all the emotions, and she
was so she was encouraging me in a beautiful way
to be like and just reminding me like you're only
like thirty, you're about to be thirty two, Like, don't
(57:44):
like give up on this thing and love and finding
love in other forms right through friendship through romance, and
it was just really it was really really important.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
And I love that.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
I'm never gonna forget that at all. I'm never gonna
forget that.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
That's such an important My mom would we were real poor.
We were real, real poor, like our fridge brokes, so
we used to cooler because we couldn't afford to get
it fixed.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
But she always said we're rich in love.
Speaker 3 (58:08):
And I used to be so annoyed because I was like, Mom,
love doesn't pay the bills. No, love sustains you when
the bills can't be baby.
Speaker 1 (58:15):
Love doesn't pay the bills.
Speaker 4 (58:16):
But listen, what kind of little kid were you that
you were thinking about bills?
Speaker 1 (58:19):
I would have been like, bitch, Mom, that's trauma.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
Love doesn't buy my Christmas present.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
That's trauma.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
And little kid was I that's called a parentified child.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
That's trauma. Yeah, I mean that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
I remember like falling and I busted my knee open,
and I knew i'd have to get stitches because I
could see the little fat blobs and I'm sobbing and
my Mom's like, oh no, does it hurt?
Speaker 1 (58:39):
And I was like, no, Mom, how are we going
to pay for this?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
Can you please, Jenna, can you please insert that clip
of Jamie Lee Curtis. And it's just like a trauma.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
It's a movie about trauma.
Speaker 8 (58:51):
It's a movie about trauma, trauma, trauma, rage, and trauma,
female trauma.
Speaker 6 (58:55):
This is what trauma looks like.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
It's trauma because that's literally what it is, unfortunately, and
it really does shape you in it when it happens
to you, and when you're younger, it's shapes.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Who you are and who you become as an adult.
Speaker 8 (59:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying you never thought about presence either, Like, damn,
we were poor as fuck too, But I was also like, Okay,
I know we're poor, you guys, but that doesn't give
Sanna an excuse to not get me a fucking a
game boy.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Ever, don't get me started on that, because.
Speaker 4 (59:24):
It is almost twenty and thirteen. Okay, I graduated high school.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Well, I went to school with really rich kids. Like
there's that new musical The Queen of Versailles coming out.
Speaker 6 (59:33):
The Queen of Versailles is the unbelievable true story of
the quest to build the largest house in America.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
It's literally about my friend's mom.
Speaker 3 (59:41):
Ah, like I had a friend who got a Maserati
for her sixteenth birthday. I had a friend who lived
next door to Shaq.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's super sweet sixteen He was on an episode for real.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
I mean, I grew up in a very wealthy area
as a very very poor kid, and like I remember
getting my mom got us like at Walmart, like an
old spy deodorant and like body wash, and I'm like,
I'm getting body washed from Santa. And these kids are
getting like, you know, new computers and new things. Like
I did have to grow up really young. But that's why,
(01:00:12):
like I encourage us to share our stories. Yeah, because
you know, yes, I'm a cancer trauma dumper and y'all
are going to keep things lighter than I will. But like,
I think it's really important for someone listening, I don't
know who they are, to hear themselves represented in the
stories of us and then say like look and they're
on a billboarding Times Square and they're living their dreams
hosting a show and they're winning reality TV shows and
(01:00:35):
people are getting their faces your winning people are getting
their faces you know, your face tattooed on their body. Eedie,
Like do you know what I mean? Like literally, I've
seen it and I'm like, why she's so ugly? No, like, no,
I'm with you, girl, I agree, but it's like we
you never know who you're going to touch. And when
I had nothing, I had my story and I build
(01:00:55):
my whole career off of that. And so I'm so
thrilled we have this place where we get to keep
telling our.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Story and we keep helping people tell their stories exactly
and creating a platform for people like Laverne Cox to
come and have conversations they've never had before in ways
they've never had them before, not because they didn't want to,
but because they weren't given the permission to HIKEI is
the permission, I will say.
Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
The next interview at Jubitch we laughing. Girl. I left that,
I was like, Okay, do I need.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
To send her money for this therapy session because I
feel like I should tip her.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
She's teaching masterclasses. Now you know she got a plan
of action.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
I can't wait for her one woman show and her
book that she's working on. All these things Laverne has
coming up. I'm so so excited because her legacy is
already cemented, but she's just building it and expanding it
in such beautiful ways. So I'm happy that we got
to talk about this interview a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Congratulations Ryan, help you enjoy dent. Yeah, great job. Thank
you for making us cry. Ah yeah, our.
Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
First That was the first interview ever of Hikey, and
no one better to do it than you write, and
you're a wonderful interviewer.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
You make people feel safe.
Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
And yeah, I think there will be more therapy sessions
just because I know, for one, every time I'm talking
on this the phone to you, I'm crying about something.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Stick around, y'all. We'll be back with our Hikey hike whatever.
Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
Okay, okay, y'all, it's time to get hikey Ben.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
What are you hikey about this week? So mine's kind
of funny.
Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
I'm hikey obsessed with TikTok And I know TikTok's been
out for a really long time. Wow, but I just
made one last week for the launch of our show,
and I'm obsessed with it because for some reason, the
algorithm has decided to serve me a lot of ex
gay content, like it's only serving me like queer through
like I ain't gay no more, and I think it's
because there's a clip where I said that as a joke,
(01:02:50):
are you not gay no more?
Speaker 6 (01:02:52):
Bro?
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Am I not gay no more?
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
And so I've been having a lot of fun trolling
people who think that they've been converted. And maybe that's
really mean, but I think conversion therapy is really messed up.
Like I remember this girl in drama, her dad tried
to tell me to go to Exodus Youth, which was
like a gay conversion thing in Orlando. And so I'm
having a lot of fun with TikTok thinking that I
am an ex gay, which like, actually maybe I kind
(01:03:17):
of am because I am dating a woman.
Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
I like how you're trolling X gays, Bitch, What do
you mean by trolling? Do you mean like sliding into
their dms, sending a few picks and being like are
you still no?
Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I mean just like commenting like okay, Sis, I'll see
at the club next year.
Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
You know what I'm saying. We'll startle back on that.
Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
You remember, like the calling all the basic bitches, calling
all the bait low Anthony.
Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Calling all the basic bitches, calling all the basic bitches.
There's a new announcement.
Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
You're basic no Anthony's an ex gay. Oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
That's actually really sad, you know it is. It's actually
really sad when you see like, oh, this like really
queer key and like he was dancing and just full
of joy and like now you flash forward to like
him now and all the joy has been like literally
sucked out of him unfortunately, and he's just quoting Bible verses.
Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
But yeah, I love that. That's your high key.
Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
Because I was there. Yeah, yeah, I was there. I
just reversed, you know, I went the other direction. I
started as the biblical boy like saying Leviticus twenty thirteen says,
do not lie with a manager, you lie with a woman,
for that as an abomination.
Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
I get this.
Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
And now I'm just like I'm an abomination and I
love it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
So that's my hig key. Who's next, Ryan? Yes, Oh
my god? My high key is literally okay.
Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
I don't know if I am like high key delusional
for being this obsessed with and just like that, but
I'm okay with it because here's the thing. There is
something about I was a late in life kind of
like Sex and the City girl.
Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
I did not get it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
I tried to watch that first season. I thought it
was a ah, this white ass New York.
Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
What is this? I don't know what this is? And
I just wasn't connecting to it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
But something happened, like later in life, around this time
where I really started to get into girls and insecure
and like started to like reach and I'm also about
to in July. I'm about to be the age that
Carrie was in the first season, and I am just
obsessed with and just like that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
One because it's just one of those shows.
Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Where it's like, if you understand, like it's not supposed
to be like this, like premiere level television, and the
way that Sarah Jessica Parker is talking about it on
this press release like she is like in can Lyons
talking about this. It's like full on, you know show
and have what it means to be Carrie and big
and how cathartic, and she's just.
Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Really going there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
I'm like, bitch, Michael Patrick King deserves prison for what
he's doing to that show.
Speaker 6 (01:05:45):
You better stup your pussy up.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Oh okay, okay, so what are you gonna do.
Speaker 6 (01:05:50):
I'm gonna step my pussy up.
Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
But I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
I'm obsessed with this so much, no matter what. I
will be watching it till the Wills falls off, just
like Gray's Anatomy, and I just spoiler I've seen this season.
So I literally watched the first season of this season
three that just came out again because I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
So obsessed with this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
So I hope you all are ready buckle up because
this season is going to be insane. Just saying I'm
high delusional about my love war and just like.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
That, honestly, me too, me too.
Speaker 4 (01:06:22):
I was watching it with my husband the other day
and we were both asking, like do and he gave,
people watch this because we think it's good, and then
we quickly found out, no, no, it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
It's no.
Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
It's like you just want to watch it because it's
it's it's literally low key giving train wreck, but also
like the emotional level, it's all really really like it's
the same thing that I feel about No Shape to
Paris Hilton when she was on that stage, I was like, Okay,
I thought you were doing a DJ set, but actually
you're giving pop star realness.
Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Did I just sign up for Scientology? Like am I been?
Now there we go. It's a slippery slip. It feels yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
You're like maybe I'm a part of this cult of mediocrity.
Maybe I love white Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Like, actually I get it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Maybe I understand why there's no black actors in X
y Z because we just need this white mediocrity.
Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
No, I mean, let us not go converting here.
Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
No, I know, and I do love that Ryan loves
the White Girl shows loves Girls starring Ben O'Keefe.
Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
One Girl. One episode is season What's six five?
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
No, the last season What's I was in the penn
ultimate episode.
Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
You're like, I shut that ship down. I literally, I
guess I ended it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
No, I mean we've talked about it in a in
a fake episode when we recorded a pilot. But I
was on an episode of Girls won a few a
few black people ever to speak on that show.
Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I ain't sleeping on ship except maybe Tom because he's
also boy. And I'd like to remind the three even
not to sleep on this friendship.
Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
And John appatavr in my acting career, so it's gotta
be a re nown.
Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
It will be in the book. There you go. Thank
you for the plug.
Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
My high key is that I am so obsessed with
the show Dying for Sex on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
I just started it.
Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
And I know that, like I can be pegged into
always talking about sex, pegged and.
Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
I wanted to say it, but I didn't.
Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Okay, well I can be pegged into it with enough lube,
that is. But I just love the show because it's
talking about so many relationships between sex and like our spirituality,
our bodies, like how we view ourselves. I just watched
this episode also spoilers where the main character Explorers trying
(01:08:41):
to top and like, what's that sort of mindset is like.
Speaker 6 (01:08:47):
Topping is a sacred skill? Okay, I was just learning
what terrifies you. I'm working with that until you come.
Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
Have you listened to the podcast that it's based Onward,
Not yet, because uh, this is the only podcast I
listened work, but I will say I will say it
is such a beautiful listen like it. It includes audio
of recorded conversations of Nicole and her friend of like
that was like hat died from cancer and you're hearing
(01:09:15):
her journal through this her experiences and Nicole is kind
of interviewing her and they're just like talking about these
moments and that's what's like translated into like the show,
and it's I remember I probably was listening to it
back in like twenty eighteen, and I would be like
boohooing from my way to work crying because it was
just so beautiful, which is it's been hard to watch
(01:09:36):
the show, but because the show is so good, but
it's bringing back all that emotion because it's so touching.
Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
It's so touching. Well, Dan, this is a two for one.
Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
Then, I guess I'm I'm hikey all about crying while
listening and crying while watching.
Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Oh gotch, I'm usually the crier. I guess I gotta
check this out. Amazing. Well, I think that's our show. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
Ahhh Now, honestly, y'all what show. Thanks Laverne for doing
our show. We love having her as a first guest
as historic and so next week, you know, stay messy,
Stam says, and of course stay hi.
Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Key, Bye bye died by.
Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Now, if you're high key loving the vibes, come hang
with us on Patreon.
Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
We're getting a.
Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Bonus conscience behind the scenes tea group chats.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Basically that's where you'll find the hike.
Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Key kai Key is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Outspoken Network. This show is created and
executive produced by Fenno Keep, Ryan, Mitchell, Evy Odley and
Spoke Media.
Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Our showrunner is Tyler Green. Our producers are Jenna Burnett
and Tess Ryan. Our video lead is Bo Delmore, and
our audio engineer is Sammy Syrech. Executive producers for Spoke
Media are Travis Slamont Ballinger and Aleah Tavicolian. Our iHeart
team is Jes Crime Chicch and Sierra Kaiser.
Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Our theme music is by Kayan Hersey and our show
art is by Work by Work, which photography by Eric.
Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Our marketing lead is Jerome Ware from shore Fire Media.
Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
At all the comments when they're saying like how hot
you are, I'm like, I am actually seeing the vision.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
I'm like, well it is pretty hot for a string
bean with buck teeth.
Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
I fuck
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