August 24, 2023 • 54 mins
Dr. Ramani answers your burning questions about enablers: who they are, what they do and why their actions can be so damaging.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering
all of your burning questions about enabling. Believe it or not,
the problem with narcissism doesn't end with the narcissistic person.
There is an equally toxic presence afoot and these people
are known as enablers. From Red Table Talk podcasts and iHeartMedia,
(00:25):
I am Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This
podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical
or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent
medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional
with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or
(00:47):
health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views
and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author
or individuals participating in the po and do not represent
the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees.
(01:08):
Sherry writes, last week, my sister told me I'm enabling
my mom's narcissism. I know my mom can be difficult,
but I don't think I enable her. What does that
even mean? Okay, so there's a few pieces to this one. First,
let's talk about what enabling is within the context of
(01:28):
a narcissistic relationship. Enabling is the at times silent and
sometimes active, not simply avoidance and not addressing the narcissistic
person's behavior, but also doubting or even gaslighting the experiences
or reactions other people are having to the narcissistic person.
(01:51):
In essence, what the enabling person does is they reinforce
reward and allow the narcissistic person to maintain there be
Enablers may or may not clearly see what's going on,
but they justify it or poo poo it in a
way they can actually do a lot of harm to
these survivors. As it were, In these situations, people wonder
(02:14):
like why why do enablers do this? Well, it serves
a lot of functions for the enabler. For some enablers,
above all else, it allows them to maintain the status quo.
We can keep pretending we're a very happy family, or
I don't need to deal with a fight at the
Thanksgiving dinner. It's a way of just keeping things sort
of artificially stable. And because the narcissistic person tends to
(02:35):
be the most volatile in the system. If you can
keep them appeased, then usually the system will keep working.
And then the sacrifice and all of that are obviously
the people getting harmed by the narcissistic person, But for
the enablers, a lot of it is about status quo.
We're going to get into the types of enablers that
will also help you understand why it is the enablers
(02:58):
do what they do. Keep this in mind, this sort
of term enabling came out of the addiction literature. It
was used there and it sort of was related to
other concepts like codependency. But what was happening was that
people who are considered enabling in that space where people
would do things like overlook the drinking or drug behavior,
(03:19):
keep alcohol in the house, keep giving the addict money,
so these behaviors that would allow the addictive behavior to
continue unquestioningly. And it all represented in some ways a
form of denial, because one of the pieces that's happening
at the core of enabling is some form of denial.
Either it's active denial I just want to not see
(03:39):
this as happening because I don't like how this looks,
or it's passive denial. They simply aren't aware of it.
I even can say personally. I remember a friend of mine,
who is one of the most lovely human beings I've
ever met in my life, has a little bit of
an enabling streak, and one day said, you know why
I don't like what you talk about, because if I
(04:02):
really listen to it, it's going to mean I have
to look at some stuff happening around me, and I
don't want to do that. And I thought that was
such an honest assessment. I said, that's fine, but never
guesslight someone who's going through it. So we were able
to have an open and honest, enabling conversation. Enablers aren't
necessarily bad people, and that's what makes it so complicated.
(04:22):
So let's talk a little bit about the different types
of enablers. One type of enabler is just a Pollyanna,
like everything's just great, and aren't we all getting along
and aren't we all friendly? It's a little bit immature,
kind of head in the clouds, And so the Pollyanna
enablers are just sort of people who just I think
there's just good in everyone, and you're thinking, I kind
(04:44):
of believe that. But this interaction wasn't Okay, so they
kind of take that good in everyone thing a little
bit too far. When we sort of push the accelerator
on the Pollyannas, we're taken to the toxically positive people. Now,
the toxically positive people will shame other people who aren't
being positive, like I don't like this energy, I don't
(05:05):
like this word narcissism. I don't like that, you know what.
They have their own story and we have to hold
space for their story, like what, Okay, they keep lying
and betraying people, but if that's how you want to
frame it, the toxically positive enablers are a bit more
dangerous than a Pollyanna enablers because they tend to shame
the survivors and say, you're not being positive. This is
(05:26):
a you issue. Maybe if you were nicer, they would
be nicer too, that kind of thing. Then there are
what I call the transactional enablers. These are the enablers
that are somehow benefiting from the narcissistic relationship. This could
be money, this could be resources, this could be status,
it could be tuition, it could be a car. Whatever
it is, they're very much benefiting. And while they're not
(05:50):
transparent about it say, hey, I'm ignoring their behavior because
I'm getting a car out of this. There is this discomfort,
sort of dissonance that they know, like I don't want
to burn this bridge. I'm getting stuff from this narcissistic person,
so I don't want to know it. I don't want
to see it. It is sort of this active I
don't want to see this because then the implication would
(06:12):
be it could sort of throw off this transactional structure
they have with this narcissistic person. Again may not be
happening consciously, but keeping that status quo and not burning
that bridge. There are also trauma bonded enablers. These folks
are tricky because you may have tremendous empathy for them.
You yourself were probably there with the narcissist yourself at
(06:33):
one point. Then you saw it, you did the work,
you did the healing, you're more clear on it. The
trauma bonded enabler is enabling the narcissistic person by justifying
their behavior, by giving it a free pass, by doing
all the things that trauma bonded people do, minimizing their behavior,
and may in some cases even gaslight you. Because for
(06:55):
the trauma bonded person, it is still about maintaining that
tie in that case con to this harmful narcissistic person.
For the trauma bonded enablers, this process is really unconscious.
These are often people you actually may very much care
about or love. Where this dynamic gets the most tricky
(07:16):
is if the trauma bonded enabler is your other parent.
So you have a narcissistic parent, and then the other
parent was trauma bonded to that parent, so they were
enabling their stuff. Now, that trauma bonded parent might have
been very loving to you, very sweet to you, really
was actually the only bright light in your childhood, but
they did keep giving the narcissistic parent a free pass,
(07:37):
which did leave you confused. You go into adulthood, the
enabling becomes clear to you, and then you might have
a very complex set of emotions about that trauma bonded
enabling parent, feeling like how could they have led us
twist in the wind like this? Why don't they see it?
And while you may have empathy for their trauma bondedness
(07:57):
and you may feel guilt about being angry at them,
you may feel very angry at a person who's a
trauma bonded enabler, especially if their presence really influence your
development in your life. Now, listen, some trauma bonded folks
may be mildly narcissistic themselves, so they may not even
take note of the entitlement and the grandiosity and the
(08:19):
arrogance is a thing like get over yourself, you know
that kind of thing. The mildly narcissistic folks also don't
have that much empathy for you, So their lack of
empathy combined with the sense that this behavior might actually
be okay, can mean those folks can be enablers. And
then there are cultural issues, and when it comes to enabling,
(08:39):
the cultural stuff is really really important. When we think
of cultures where it's family first and everything stays within
the family and don't talk about our family business out
of here. The person that does break ranks and might
go to therapy or want to actually call out abusive
stuff in the family, that person will be viewed as
the problem, whereas the family close ranks and protect the
(09:01):
narcissistic person. It may not even be that the family
doesn't see the narcissistic person's behavior is bad, but whatever
sort of cultural rules of order there are. Maybe they
might be sort of patriarchal qualities, They may be related
to other sort of authoritarian structures, may simply be cultures
where again it's family first at all costs. That at
(09:22):
those times, people will often report feeling very gaslighted and
very confused, because they'll say, people know this person's bad,
they're all talking smack inside the family system, but we're
just not allowed to go and get help for that.
And that can leave people in this very confused spot.
Can I get help? Can I talk about this? Am
I the bad person for talking about this? Don't forget
(09:43):
about the flying monkeys. The flying monkeys are absolutely a
form of enabler that is a much more active enabler,
and even in a more terrible level. Not only do
the flying monkeys enable the narcissist, they attack on their behalf.
The smear campaigns, spreading gossip, holding up rumors and innuendo
(10:05):
coming at you, bothering you, stalking you, harassing you. So
to me, the flying monkey maybe the worst form of enabler.
Let me tell you, When a narcissistic person has flying monkeys,
they feel so emboldened because now they literally have someone
out there doing their bidding. The flying monkeys are the
(10:27):
type of enablers that may very well cause the most harm.
As you can imagine, some of these enabling patterns overlap.
But the point again I want to make is the
reason enabling is so insidious is that there are people
in your life you really adore and say, this person's
actually very empathic, very nice, has been a good loyal friend.
But where the cracks began to show was when I
(10:50):
was talking about maybe a mutual narcissistic person in our lives,
and the enabler was more likely to jump to the
narcissistic person's defense. They'll say they're still empathic, I'm still
cool with them around everything except this one relationship. And
you can see then how in some ways enabling relationships
can be even more confusing than the narcissistic ones. In
(11:13):
our next question, Glenn asks, I feel like I'm losing
my mind. I know my brother is a narcissist and
uses every opportunity to gaslight me. The people around him
know how difficult he is, but they never call him out.
I'm so sick of the that's just how he is.
(11:34):
Come on, Glenn, let it go be the bigger person.
So in Glenn's case, here is that all these people
around him again, it's that status quo that's such a
big part of the enabling process, that it's not that
they want to hurt you, but that they don't want
(11:54):
the system to get cracked or in some cases have
to face up with what they already know is an
uncomfortable truth, but it's almost like something that they don't
want to deal with, looking at as any of us
sometimes don't want to when we're in a close relationship
with someone where we've invested time in years and feel like, oh,
I really don't want this to be true of this person.
(12:17):
So what happens is in Glenn's case, who's Glenn is
losing his mind? Glenn knows something to be true, that
his brother's behavior is unacceptable, unhealthy, and frankly toxic. But
what's making it worse is that the people around him.
(12:37):
It's almost worse gaslighting because you're with the narcissistic person,
You're like, Okay, they're gaslighting me. But when the enablers
are saying, let it go, it's just how he is,
or you be the bigger person. The implication when somebody
tells you to be the bigger person. Is that if
you call this person out, then you're being a smaller person.
That's gaslighting. The thing within neighbor is to stay solid
(13:02):
within yourself that you're very clear in what's happening in
the narcissistic relationship. Have other sort of what I call
gaslight free zones in your life where you can talk
to people and say, this is what my brother did.
Can you tell me what you think of it? And
those people say that is not okay. You then will
(13:23):
feel perhaps more steadfast in the face of the people
who are telling you that you're the problem because you
won't let it go, that you need to be the
bigger person, or they sort of rationalize the behavior by
saying that's just how he is. If I can give
you one piece of guidance, now, how I always tell
you don't call out the narcissist. Double that, and don't
(13:46):
try to convert the enablers. It is so tempting. They
may ask you, what's this narcissism thing you're talking about? Say, well,
it's when a person doesn't have empathy and is entitled
la la la la la. You give them the list.
The other person may not and say okay, cool and
keep going. You may plant to see, but this idea
(14:07):
of you need to see that my brother is narcissistic,
that's not going to work. If anything, by pushing your
experience at them in your assessment of the situation, they're
probably going to double down on No, you're the one
who's the problem. They're not ready to see Glenn's brother
in a clear light or at least understand Glenn's point
(14:29):
of view. For many folks, for a lot of enablers,
they actually know that the behavior that the narcissistic person
is engaging in is toxic. But they don't want to
poke the bear. They don't want to deal with it,
and that not wanting to deal with it. I struggle
with that because in the not wanting to deal with it,
(14:50):
people who are really enduring a lot of abuse have
to keep enduring more because nobody is willing to step
up to the plate. Here's one thing we do know.
There is strength in numbers. When multiple people recognize that
something's not okay. It's not going to change the narcissistic
person's behavior. But the people who are all sharing amongst
(15:11):
themselves this isn't okay. You feel heard, and you feel seen,
and all of those are essential ingredients sort of letting
this go and healing. So I feel for Glenn, and
I understand why why Glenn is losing his mind. What
Glenn needs is some gaslight free zones to at least
have a sounding board and recognize that you're not going
to be able to turn these enablers around overnight. The
(15:34):
best thing that many people can do in a situation
like this is just say, you know why, I'm struggling
with my brother's behavior, because he did this, Because he
did this, and because he did this, stick to observable behavior.
They're still probably going to gaslight you instead of making
it about your brother's narcissism. So to stick to the
behaviors and you'd be surprised maybe a few people will
(15:54):
come around. One of the worst positions to be in
is to be the first person in a group or
a fan family to be the one who recognizes that
the narcissistic person may very well be narcissistic. It's a
little bit like the Boy and the Emperor's and your clothes, right.
He was the first one to probably say it. Maybe
the other people in the parade knew the emperor wasn't
(16:15):
wearing any clothes. The boy saw it and got it
and said it. To be the first person to see
it is actually not particularly an enviable position, because you
may doubt your judgment about it, if you have your
own trauma bonds and your own history with this person,
if you feel like by saying this, you're going to
kind of up end a fantasy about this being a
happy family or a great place to work or something
(16:38):
like that. So it's a lot of guilt for people
who say, I don't want to be the one who
punctures the hole in the balloon that everybody really cares about.
But in the same breath, you may also see not
only the toll that is taking on you, but on
other people in the system. If you are the first
person who gets it, the most important thing you can
do is find sounding boards that might be therapy. It
(16:59):
may be so groups, It may simply be friends who've
seen it for a long time and might say glad
you finally got up with that. And I have to say,
as a therapist who's worked in this space, I remember
many years ago saying someone was sharing me with me
about a sibling. I said, whoh, your brother sounds narcissistic,
and it was actually a bad thing I did. The
(17:20):
person's behavior was so egregious I couldn't let it slip.
That was a bad therapist moment of mine, and I said, oh,
your brother's narcissistic. And the client just reeled back and
said come again and didn't like it because they weren't ready.
And so that was a real lesson for me. Now. Interestingly,
years later that person said, you know, you were the
(17:42):
first person who ever saw it. I didn't take that
as congratulations. I saw that as trying to rush someone.
In a point of view, my work at that point
is a therapist, and actually for anyone, even as a friend,
would be how do you feel, how does their behavior
affect you? Tell me more about those behaviors, helping them
create a vocabulary about how this behavior is affecting them.
(18:03):
It's so tempting to say that's a narcissist, but it
actually doesn't do anyone any favors unless we can really
frame it and think about it in terms of how
this behavior is affecting us. We will be right back
with this conversation in our next question. Alina writes, do
(18:28):
all narcissists have enablers, not necessarily, but you almost have
to view a narcissist as a plant and the enablers
as water. Without that water, that plant is going to
wither and die. And without enablers, a narcissistic person's grandiosity
(18:51):
and posturing and all of that will fade. You may wonder, then,
what's left If a narcissist doesn't have enablers. You may
see anger, you may see acting out, You may even
see maladaptive behaviors like addiction, and in some cases you
may even see depression. An example of this would be
someone like the character of the Joker, who was somebody
(19:12):
who wasn't getting that validation. He didn't have anyone close
to him, didn't have family, didn't have an audience, and
it just really sort of ate him up from the
inside out. It's actually an interesting illustration of them, but
most narcissistic people do. Keep in mind, narcissistic people are charming,
(19:33):
they're charismatic, they're sociable, they're extroverted. Many people want to
be close to them, and as a result, they often
do have a rather robust social network. They do great
on social media. They post all the time. Everybody likes
their stuff. A lot of people want to be near
them so as long as they're getting validation as well
as have people around them who not only validate them
(19:56):
but let them get away with stuff. The narcissistic a
person is adequately supplied, they might even feel well regulated,
and they go through their lives quite contentedly. But not
all do. And some people have enablers and then they
lose enablers. We might see this in older adults, people
who once had marriages and children and jobs. They may
(20:18):
get older, they may leave the job, they may get
pushed out of the job. The kids may have burned
all their bridges with the parents saying enough's enough. They
may get divorced, their partner may predecease them, partner may
completely cut off from them, and in later life. What
you might see, and I've seen this over and over
again in the family systems of hundreds of clients I've
(20:38):
worked with, is that the narcissistic parent who no longer
has their enablers really kind of goes off to a
very angry, lonely, isolated older age, and they may actually
have difficulty finding placements for them in assisted living or
other kinds of facilities. Because they can often be rather
difficult and combative, so it's not a pretty picture. And
(21:00):
you see a narcissistic person without enablers, most do not
all do, and when they don't, they actually don't do
well because there's nobody any longer propping up their behavior
and letting them get away with stuff. And without enablers,
there's no one making excuses, so even as new people
come in, they'll say this is bad, and there's no
(21:21):
one saying no, no, no, you're reading the situation wrong.
So enablers are not only sources of validation, they're also
sources of excuses, and when those things go away, the
narcissistic person loses a lot of their power. Many keep
their enablers their whole lives, especially if they're from family
systems where it's not okay to step away. And also
(21:41):
people who may have a lot of wealth and power
and privilege may continue to have enablers around them, a
bit like vultures circling something because everyone's waiting for their
piece of the pie, so they may continue to have
enablers around them that prop them up, perhaps waiting for
the reward on the other side. Jonah says, I have
(22:03):
recently realized my dad is a covert narcissist. This has
helped me understand so much about my family. But I'm
having a tough time with feelings towards my mom. I
realize I'm very hurt and angry at her for protecting him,
defending him, staying with him, and giving up her joy
and happiness for a terrible marriage. How can I work
(22:26):
through my hurt and anger while still maintaining a relationship
with my mom? So Jonah's question is one of the
most complicated ones we see around enabling relationships, because, as
I said, the enablers in our lives may be people
who are very important to us, who we do love,
(22:47):
and who we've actually seen suffer. In Jonah's case, his
mother definitely sounds like she had a rough time in
this relationship and that she gave up her life, She
gave up her joy, she gave up her happiness. It's
not like the mom had an easy ride, whereas the
father probably just got away with a lot. Mom just
endured a lot. However, her endurance became a form of
(23:07):
enabling that hurt Jonah. It would have shaped Jonah's developmental experience.
Jonah is hurt and anger absolutely makes sense. But for
a lot of folks in Jonah's position, there's also a
tremendous amount of guilt. My mother's already suffered so much.
My mother's already given up so much joy, so much happiness,
and now I'm one more person piling on This is
(23:28):
where this concept. I've talked about this on Navigating narcissism before,
and I'll talk about it over and over again, is
this concept of these stacked up multiple truths. Multiple things
can be true. Jonah likely loves his mom. Jonah is
hurt by his mom's enabling Jonah is angry. Jonah may
very well feel guilty. What's he supposed to do with this?
(23:51):
All of this stuff can coexist. Being angry at his
mother doesn't mean he can't have a relationship with her.
Like Jonah, Actually there's a benefit if it's possible to
go to therapy with your mother. We often don't think
of that as adults. It's actually going to therapy with
the covert narcissistic father makes absolutely no sense. But with
(24:12):
his mother having that if you will, referee or a
sort of guidance in the room, could really be a
place where Jonah feels safer sharing his anger. Mom, after
years of a marriage to a covert, vulnerable narcissist, has
probably learned to swallow her feelings and will just capitulate
her husband's anger. A therapist could be a great place
(24:35):
for Jonah's mom to make sort of her experience more understood.
And it's very very likely that Jonah's mother feels a
tremendous amount of grief and regret over what happened, but
may not feel that she has the vocabulary to express it.
And keep in mind, after however, many decades of invalidation
Jonah's mother experience in her marriage, she probably doesn't even
(24:58):
feel justified hearing her voice her feelings herself separate from
her husband. So it's possible, and the hard part becomes
how do you maintain a relationship with someone when you
have such a complicated mix of hurt, anger, guilt, and love.
It's small steps and it's good boundaries. I wouldn't advise
(25:20):
Jonah his mom to go on a two week vacation,
but taking little bits of time doing it separate from
his father, and that might be a really important ask
for Jonah. Say, if we're going to spend time together
I don't want him around, and that's a very fair ask,
and to slowly have those opportunities of getting to know
each other. Jonah may feel that there are limits, that
(25:41):
some of his hurt and anger might mean that he
can only go so deep with his mother. He may
not fully trust her and the loss of whether it
be respect or regard he had for his mom for
staying in this in the harm that came to him. Again,
there's only so deep he may be able to go,
which is why also individual therapy in these cases can
be really really important. Just because someone was an enabler
(26:05):
in your life, especially the one that was a parent,
doesn't mean that there's not a path forward. There absolutely is,
and honestly, in giving a name to these feelings instead
of just staying mired and guilt, but understanding that this
is a really complicated mix of hurt and anger and
grief and guilt and love can mean that there's a
(26:26):
possibility for a conversation, but it's slow. The boundaries have
to be good, you have to trust yourself, and if
it's possible to have someone guiding you in this process
like a therapist, could be incredibly helpful. Alexandra asks About
a year ago, I stopped speaking to my friend who
is a narcissist. Since then, some of our mutual friends,
(26:48):
people I care for deeply told me I should make
amends and reconnect with this narcissistic person. Are they considered enablers?
And how should I respond when they say this? So
to Alexandra, the thing that I would want to know
is have your friends actually listened to your experience to
what happened for you. It's not I can't imagine you
(27:10):
woke up one day and said, Hey, this person in
our friend group is narcissistic. Out. My guess is lots
of things happened over a long time that led you
to come to this assessment. Are your friends aware of this? Listen?
It's not your job to be the narcissism education police,
but to give them context may help them understand why
(27:31):
you've stepped away. One of the dangers in groups of
people is when we say I want nothing to do
with them they're a narcissist. A lot of people still
don't know what this means, and so they're thinking, what,
you don't like her because she looks in the mirror
a lot and post selfies. No, that's not what the
issue is. And so if you were to break it
(27:51):
down and say, listen, this person, this happened, this happened,
this happened, this happened. That left me feeling this, this,
and this, and it is not a healthy space for me.
That's a very different conversation than saying this friend is
a narcissist. It can put you on your back heel
because now people are saying, well, you're the one who's
name calling and it's not really that. But by painting
(28:14):
out a more behavioral picture and an experiential picture of
what you went through, your friends potentially may come up
with more empathy. Now, Alexandra, let's say you've done that,
You've explained all of this to them and said what happened,
and they're still saying you should make amends and reconnect.
Not great, that feels more inably, It really comes down
(28:36):
to how much information they have. They have a full
working knowledge of what happened, and they're pushing you to
do this. I would then really say that you think
through again that status quo. They may just want things
to be the way they were. They might find themselves
tired of having to be your friend and her friend
and kind of having to keep things separate. But if
(28:56):
you can have that conversation and they're aware, but if
they still hold their position, yeah, despite all those things
that she did, Yep, you still need to make amends
if you feel up to it. And Alexandra, I don't
know that you'd want to. Some do, some don't. Is
to say, what is this to you? Why is it
so important to you that this happens? If they give
you some ephemeral while everyone should forgive to move forward,
(29:19):
that's not an answer. Hold their feet to the fire.
See if they tell you what's really on their mind.
A good friend may be disappointed that a friend group
has split up. A really good friend will say, yeah,
I'm bummed out that we're not all one group, but
I understand that you need to do what feels right
to you and I got you, and then proceed to
(29:40):
maybe even have the conversation. Are you comfortable that they're
still friends with that other person? Some people can toe
that line, but it really requires that your friend can
really be able to appreciate and empathize with your point
of view. Gina says, my father is my mom's enabler.
Anytime I bring up her behavior, or even read direct
(30:02):
quotes she's texted to me. He denies it or says
the classic she didn't mean it like that. I'm at
the point I need to go no contact with my mom,
but I'm so afraid i'll lose my dad too. How
do I navigate this? Oh, Gina, isn't one of those
catch twenty two's that these narcissistic situations bring up all
(30:23):
the time in a family. You know, right from the jump,
you can see how enablers, how their gaslighting can be
just as potent as the gaslighting of the narcissistic person.
She's reading direct quotes to the dad from the text
or showing him the tax and he's saying, she didn't
mean it like that, didn't mean it like what? How
(30:44):
do you know? It's really dangerous And I'm just gonna
go on a little bit of a side rant here.
One of the most dangerous things any of us can
do is to draw a conclusion about a person's intention.
Anytime we do that, nine times out of ten, we
make a mess out of a relationship. You do not
(31:05):
know what is going on in someone's head. I get
paid to do this, and I don't know what's going
on in someone's head, I ask them, and I highly
would recommend you do the same. So unless Dad has
gone to Mom to get her to decode her toxic text,
dad doesn't know now and he doesn't know. But again
(31:28):
that's status quo. Enablers wanting to keep everything just the
way it is, is that he's going to say whatever
he needs to say to be able to keep Mom
on the good side of the fence. The challenge with
enablers is that there's a sort of a simplification they're
trying to engage in. It's really, really hard when you
(31:48):
have someone in your life who's narcissistic that you have
no intention of removing from your life, and then you
have somebody who's being hurt by that narcissistic person, and
you don't want to get rid of both of those
people or you don't want to lose them, right, and
you're trying to be in that sort of middle place
between the two. If I can give all of you
one piece of guidance, if you find yourself in that situation,
(32:11):
do not be the narcissistic person's publicist, because that, in
essence is what enabling is. Let the narcissist make their mistakes,
they're not your mistakes. And if that means this other
person is like that behavior is not okay. Your role
then becomes to foster a relationship with the person being
(32:34):
hurt by the narcissist that helps that person feel heard
and seen and recognized and empathized with. It is possible.
Is it easy? No? But if you care about someone enough,
you'll figure out how to do it. Doesn't mean you're
kicking the narcissistic person to the curb, but to keep
(32:55):
them in your life doesn't mean you have to kick
the other person to the curb. Just remember that. But
in this person's case, that she's now feeling like I
can't do this with Mom anymore. And here's where this
gets tricky. I'm happy to say we're gonna be taken
on your no contact questions as well, because no contact
is its own kind of complex sort of space. But
(33:18):
this idea that will I lose Dad if I go
no contact with Mom? I wish I could sugarcoat that here,
But the answer to that is you might if Dad
is really trauma bonded with and really committed to being
Mom's enabler. When you lose a narcissistic person. When you
put down that absolute boundary, it's not about one person.
(33:41):
There's often a lot of other people you may lose
as well. In some ways, also becomes an uncomfortable place
because people don't like to give ultimatums. But in the
same breath, is Dad willing to In essence, it sort
of feels like he'd be sneaking behind Mom's back to
see you. I cannot tell you how many people I
have walked through the space of is there a way
(34:02):
to kind of keep both? One thing I can say
to Gina, Gina, if Dad matters that much to you,
stop showing Dad the Mom texts, because what you're going
to then have to realize is that a relationship with
Dad means that you don't talk about Mom. He is
not your ally in that space. He is not your
(34:23):
advocate in that space, and he does not want to
see it. If you can have a relationship with Dad
and carve out that piece of talking about Mom, if
you think you can do that, you can have Dad
in your life on that limited basis. And if Dad
starts bringing Mom up, Hey, we're having a nice time.
Maybe next time Mom could come, then you set the
(34:44):
boundary and say no, I love you, Dad, I want
to spend time with you. I don't want to spend
time with her. It can feel painful if ultimately Dad
sort of start stepping back because Mom is actually going
at him. How dare you get together with her? Because
you know Dad's going to be foolish enough tell her
the truth. But at the end of the day, if
he does, you gotta remember your dad can make his
(35:05):
own choices, and it's painful if you feel that you're
on the losing side of that choice. Brittany wrote, I've
just left the narcissistic boss I worked for for nearly
twenty years. As part of my healing, I'm realizing I
was enabling a lot of toxic behavior. How do I
process the fact that my behavior hurt a lot of people? Brittany,
(35:29):
That's a tough one. So this actually is a spot
where I can talk about something that is sometimes termed
moral injury. Moral injury is the negative emotions that occur
when a person believes that they have done something bad
that hurts someone else. It's an experience. It almost feels
(35:51):
like post traumatic stress that we have when we feel
as though we were doing something Often in the line
of our or our work that ended up with people
getting harmed. So it might be somebody having followed orders
exactly as they were supposed to, but by following orders,
(36:12):
a person or many people got hurt, and although on
paper the person did the right thing, those people got hurt,
and the person experiencing moral injury will feel responsible for this.
One of the strongest examples we had of this was
in the pandemic, where a lot of healthcare workers when
we didn't have enough PPE, we didn't have enough beds,
(36:32):
we didn't have enough spaces in emergency rooms, were actually
feeling that the kinds of decisions they were having to
make could have ended up resulting in significantly worse illness
or even death for people, and they felt a sense
of moral injury. It wasn't their fault, there wasn't enough
PPE and gloves and masks and all of that stuff,
but that the people were getting sicker or dying. That
a lot of healthcare workers took that upon themselves, And
(36:53):
there's now research showing that that happened for people at
that time, and the way we carry moral injury ourselves psychologically, again,
it looks a lot like post traumatic stress, a lot
of anxiety, a lot of rumination, a sort of a
sense of vigilance, attention, a self blame. It's an incredibly
and comfortable space to occupy. And in this case, Britney
(37:15):
recognizes that in my job, doing my job, probably being
told you even did your job well by enabling this
toxic behavior, that in retrospect there is a recognition that
people got hurt by this. I'll tell you this right now.
One thing we know about moral injury is we still
haven't come up with good psychological treatments for it. And
one of the most important things that somebody in Britney's
(37:37):
situation could do is talk it out. I could sit
here till I'm blue in the face saying clearly you
were trying to survive, and that is totally understandable. But
I also, in the same breath recognize that you may
have hurt people in a very real way who are
also struggling, and say, well, you know you didn't mean
to I can't you know what I'm saying. We're back
(37:57):
to that issue of intention. So for Brittany, this is
very much an issue of going into a space and
talking it out. Now, if we want to lift from
systems like twelve step, and to me, probably one of
the most powerful aspects of twelve step and of working
a program is the aspect of making amens. Having watched
(38:19):
patients do that over the years, having worked with many
clients who are going through the making a men's phase,
I find it particularly profound because making amends is done
without an agenda. This isn't about them accepting your apology.
This is about you rolling up and saying I'm aware
that some of these decisions hurt you. I was part
of that, and I'm genuinely sorry for the pain you experienced.
(38:44):
And that's that, no explaining, no nothing, And for brittany
part of your process may very well be over time,
and again this would be something one made me to
explore very carefully in therapy. And there may even be
because it's a workplace issue, there could be life liability
issues involved in this. So you have to proceed very
very carefully. But if there is a way that might
(39:07):
help them feel more whole and in making amends, that
might also be something that you explore. A lot of
people are able to connect the dots, they're able to
see that I see where this decision came from and
I see the person who was executing it, Brittany. Doesn't
mean that people are going to be fond of you,
but they may also be able to connect the dots
(39:27):
to up here and keep finally in mind that you
were hurt by this process too. It's so easy to
get lost and the pain you may have caused that
you forget that this experience also significantly harmed you twenty
years in a toxic workplace situation. That's no joke and
(39:47):
it is really harmful. So you do have a process
of healing to go through too, and it is very
likely that some of the people that you believe you
hurt were also aware of the hurt that you were
experiencing as well. Brittany's question isn't an easy one and
it's not one that could really be resolved without therapy.
This is definitely not a self fix kind of a thing.
(40:09):
And so through therapy determining whatever that path forward looks
like for you, and that many of us sometimes have
to carry these burdens for a long time and may
determine that there are other ways we can pay them forward.
You may then engage in some form of mentorship, working
with people in a volunteer capacity, doing something that you
(40:30):
feel at least pays back or even makes things right,
depending on whatever industry you're working in, And while it
may not turn back the clock, it may at least
help you feel that not only are you not contributing
to a problem, but that you may be protecting people
from things like this happening in the future. My conversation
(40:51):
will continue after this break. Samantha asks, is it necessary
to remove people from your life who don't get it
when trying to separate from a narcissist. Listen, if we
did that, we are going to have some real small
(41:14):
social networks really fast. I mean, Samantha, it's tempting. And
I talk in my own work of something I call
the toxic dump, when once you get out of a
primary narcissistic relationship, you kind of look around and say, WHOA,
I've felt a lot of unhealthy stuff happening. But as
you are separating from a primary narcissistic relationship, that's going
(41:35):
to be enough psychological energy. If there are people around
you who are second guessing you, doubting you, blaming you,
shaming you, guilting you, or trying to give the narcissistic
person a free pass at that time, significant boundaries are
needed because you're going through enough of a difficult experience.
(41:55):
For example, if it was a divorce, that having to
manage all of these dissenting opinions can be really, really overwhelming.
When you get through the initial crisis of separating from
a narcissistic relationship, which can last a while if you
account for things like post separation abuse, but it can
really take a while before you feel like you've separated
from that relationship. Then as you kind of lift your
(42:18):
head over that dust cloud, is the time when you
look around and say, are some of these people in
my life healthier? Are they not? And then to ask
yourself when I needed a friend, was my friend more
interested in moralizing about marriage than she was to be
there for me? Or was my father complaining more about
losing his golf buddy than being a father to me?
(42:40):
Those then become the difficult conversations you have with yourself
and set boundaries and make those choices accordingly. I got
to tell you, trying to do it all the same time,
it's probably a little overwhelming, and you question, Samantha, you
ask is it necessary? No, it's not necessary. What we
learn as we navigate this territory of narcissism is discernment
(43:07):
about how deep or not deep we let people into
our lives. You realize that that friend who is that
moralizing not able to be there for you person As
you have another conversation with her, you recognize that you
leaving your toxic marriage was actually really unsettling for her
as she started wondering about her own marriage, that she
(43:29):
was talking from a place of fear. You may still
feel as though some connective tissue was cut, but you
may still feel as though there's a place for her
in your life. Discernment means that everyone doesn't get to
have a front row orchestra seat to that theater called
your life. That some people are going to be in
(43:49):
the cheap seats and some people get to be backstage,
and you get to make choices about that by really
paying attention and saying I value myself in a way
to make choices in my life about people who are
good for me and who helped me grow and who
are safe. Fact is is that discernment is everything when
(44:09):
we're thinking about narcissistic relationships. Charlotte asks, why is it
that as I've begun healing. I have more contempt for
the enabler than the person with the narcissistic personality. Who, Charlotte,
that's a question. I love that question too. This is
so common. The funny thing about the day we finally
(44:33):
get the narcissistic personality piece, we recognize that it's not
good for us, we recognize the harm in it, we
recognize that it's not going to change. We may even
understand how their backstory made their narcissistic personality and still
give ourselves permission to set a boundary or get out.
That almost feels more clear to us than this really
(44:55):
messy space of the enablers, people who we may have
let far more deep into our lives, we may even
have talked about the problems in this relationship, been very open,
very vulnerable. So once you get the narcissistic person figured out,
like okay, that's their personality, But with the enablers, especially
if they're not narcissistic, but people who really may be
(45:17):
sort of again, whether it's for a transactional reason or
a pollyanna ish reason, or a trauma bonded or just
plain old denial reason, that they could let you down
in that way, despite having opened up to you, despite
you having had what felt like a friendly relationship, that
feels like a deeper betrayal because your feeling is they
(45:38):
do know better, I've seen them know better, but for
whatever sort of thing that they're stuck on around this
narcissistic relationship, that they can't get unstuck and just be
there for me. Listen, you may not even be asking
the enabler to agree with you that the narcissistic person
is narcissistic. You just need them to be there for you,
(46:00):
to not gaslight you, to hold space for your point
of view. That's all you need, because not everyone's going
to read like I don't know about the narcissism peace,
but I totally agree that this person has treated you
horribly all these years, and I get why you need
to step away. That is sometimes, in fact, often more
than enough. And for that reason, the contempt we may
(46:24):
have for the enablers, you saw that they did get
it at times, they'd even endured some of the narcissistic stuff,
especially if the enabler feels it all self interested that
it's as though if I do this, then I may
not get those tickets to the super bowl, or if
I do this, then may not be able to get
to go to the beach vacation this year, Like you
(46:46):
chose the beach vacation over me. Not a good feeling.
And so I think that there's certain kinds of enabling
experiences that feel so much more invalidating because it was
basically they were playing both sides of the street, and
that doesn't feel good at least a narcissist is just
on that side of the street. But when someone is
sort of being your friend but then not really there
(47:08):
for you, that can actually feel more betraying. Max writes,
my cousin's wedding is coming up, and I'm going to
be in touch with my enabling on a lot during
the planning process. How can I control myself without feeling triggered? Oh,
the family wedding. There's just so much happening at family weddings,
(47:30):
and then there's a bunch of strangers you don't know
who bring their own toxic mess to the party. But
in this particular case, that with your cousin's wedding coming up,
that is going to put you in proximity with family
members you may traditionally not if you're involved in planning,
or you're a member of the wedding party, or you're
actually the person in the bride or the groom, whatever
(47:50):
it is, you are now having proximity to somebody who
may be an enabler of another toxic person in this
family system, which is very unsettling for you. And most
of the time you don't need to do that. One
of the most useful tools you can have when you're
(48:11):
dealing with narcissistic people or enabling people is so simple.
It's preparation. You know what your aunt's about, so what
that means is And I wish we could almost view
boundaries as these little gates around us that we could
pull up. You know they go shutters that go on
windows when you're out of town or businesses closed at
(48:33):
the end of the day. Imagine those around you, and
I know how they go click click click click click
click audible sound like okay, going to see the auntie
enable click click click, click, click click click maybe up
to here, Okay, toxic person. The whole thing goes around you.
But that click click click as silly as it seems,
it's a visual and an audible sensation that you can
(48:55):
have of like going in with the aunt. Click click click,
imagining that around you, something protecting you, that sense of
self awareness, giving yourself, for example, permission to step away
when the enabling AUNT is enabling or signing off on
the toxic behavior of a key narcissistic family member. Knowing
(49:18):
is so much because you really can gird yourself again.
Click to click those shutters up and down as you need.
It may very well be that another time you're talking
to the cousin and you may love the cousin. Shutter
comes down, Aunt comes in the room, shutter goes back up.
You might want to put that shutter on a remote
control as you plan this wedding. But the feeling is
(49:39):
self possessed about this, the enabling aunt being an enabler
is not a surprise. It is unsettling. And when we
are triggered or activated, I prefer thinking of it like
the pluck of a string that keeps reverberating for a while.
But when that happens, it's our nervous system saying I
don't like this, and what we need then is sometimes
(50:00):
time to come down. After those encounters, if you are
in a situation where you can get out of the situation,
in this particular setting, one rule could be, as soon
as Auntie starts enabling, I'm stepping out. I can work
with this. We will talk about flower arrangements and who's
gonna get aunt Melba up from Florida or whatever. I
(50:21):
do all that, But the minute this person starts signing
off on toxic person's behavior, I am going to start
excusing myself from the conversation. Not abruptly, not dramatically. They
may think you need to go to the bathroom a lot,
but just get up and step away, give yourself a
second to talk yourself down. Say I can step away,
(50:42):
I can give myself permission to do this. I can
pull those shutters up. But this is a very intentional,
aware process. The more of that you have, the more
you don't feel surprised and shocked, and again, the more
you might even feel more in command of what this
entire experience is like. Good luck to your cousin. Enabling
(51:03):
takes the harm caused by the narcissistic relationship and magnifies
it one hundredfold. The very people you thought you could
turn to for support all of a sudden feel as
though they are allied with the narcissistic person, and that's
a moment that not only feels really gaslighting, it can
(51:24):
be unsettling, uncomfortable, and magnify existing issues you're having, including shame,
self blame, and guilt. We put so much focus on
the narcissistic people that we forget how much of this
story is playing out with lots of other people in
our lives, and to recognize that somebody that we actually
(51:46):
may care about isn't able to fully appreciate the experience
that we're having can be heartbreaking. One of the most
difficult things about enabling is that in a healthy situation,
you're not asking people to choose sides. It's not as
though you're saying to the enabling person, do not have
(52:06):
anything to do with that narcissistic person anymore. It doesn't
quite work that way. We may want that to happen,
but it doesn't always work that way. That sometimes all
we need from the enabler, all we wanted, I should say,
from the enabler, is that they could have simply held
space and seen our hurt, our loss, our pain, and
(52:27):
our experience, because for most human beings, being seen and
having someone bear witness to our pain is an incredibly
healing experience. For someone to not do that, and the
sense that they may be doing it to maintain some
status quo or in a way that helps or preserves them,
(52:48):
can really really create a schism and break our hearts
in a way that's very different than what happens in
the narcissistic relationship. I'm so glad we didn't ask Doctor
Rominy episode on enabling, because it's a thing. I have
to say that once people get narcissism. Don't get me wrong, devastation, devastation, devastation.
(53:09):
But it's almost like there's a playbook for that. Okay, yeah, insecurity,
got it, grandiosity, invalidation, got it, got it, got it
all right, So it's like, got it right, there's a roadmap.
I'm not saying it's an easy roadmap. I'm not saying
it's easy territory with the enablers. It's like the wild West.
It's just open territory. Like my sister I love, and
then this happens my best friend from college, and then
(53:30):
there's an enabled thing. It is incredibly complicated space. Enablers
don't just bring up simple feelings. I'm not saying the
narcissistic people do either. But the feelings are so complicated,
and then if you think it's bad going through narcissistic abuse,
the shure all those enablers coming in there is absolutely overwhelming.
(53:52):
So this was a really really important Q and A,
because this is a show for you, the survivors, and
so keep in mind that when the enabling's happening, it
can really really make the narcissistic abuse feel so much worse.
So I'm so glad we did this.
Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering
all of your burning questions about enabling. Believe it or not,
the problem with narcissism doesn't end with the narcissistic person.
There is an equally toxic presence afoot and these people
are known as enablers. From Red Table Talk podcasts and iHeartMedia,
(00:25):
I am Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This
podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical
or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent
medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional
with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or
(00:47):
health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views
and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author
or individuals participating in the po and do not represent
the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees.
(01:08):
Sherry writes, last week, my sister told me I'm enabling
my mom's narcissism. I know my mom can be difficult,
but I don't think I enable her. What does that
even mean? Okay, so there's a few pieces to this one. First,
let's talk about what enabling is within the context of
(01:28):
a narcissistic relationship. Enabling is the at times silent and
sometimes active, not simply avoidance and not addressing the narcissistic
person's behavior, but also doubting or even gaslighting the experiences
or reactions other people are having to the narcissistic person.
(01:51):
In essence, what the enabling person does is they reinforce
reward and allow the narcissistic person to maintain there be
Enablers may or may not clearly see what's going on,
but they justify it or poo poo it in a
way they can actually do a lot of harm to
these survivors. As it were, In these situations, people wonder
(02:14):
like why why do enablers do this? Well, it serves
a lot of functions for the enabler. For some enablers,
above all else, it allows them to maintain the status quo.
We can keep pretending we're a very happy family, or
I don't need to deal with a fight at the
Thanksgiving dinner. It's a way of just keeping things sort
of artificially stable. And because the narcissistic person tends to
(02:35):
be the most volatile in the system. If you can
keep them appeased, then usually the system will keep working.
And then the sacrifice and all of that are obviously
the people getting harmed by the narcissistic person, But for
the enablers, a lot of it is about status quo.
We're going to get into the types of enablers that
will also help you understand why it is the enablers
(02:58):
do what they do. Keep this in mind, this sort
of term enabling came out of the addiction literature. It
was used there and it sort of was related to
other concepts like codependency. But what was happening was that
people who are considered enabling in that space where people
would do things like overlook the drinking or drug behavior,
(03:19):
keep alcohol in the house, keep giving the addict money,
so these behaviors that would allow the addictive behavior to
continue unquestioningly. And it all represented in some ways a
form of denial, because one of the pieces that's happening
at the core of enabling is some form of denial.
Either it's active denial I just want to not see
(03:39):
this as happening because I don't like how this looks,
or it's passive denial. They simply aren't aware of it.
I even can say personally. I remember a friend of mine,
who is one of the most lovely human beings I've
ever met in my life, has a little bit of
an enabling streak, and one day said, you know why
I don't like what you talk about, because if I
(04:02):
really listen to it, it's going to mean I have
to look at some stuff happening around me, and I
don't want to do that. And I thought that was
such an honest assessment. I said, that's fine, but never
guesslight someone who's going through it. So we were able
to have an open and honest, enabling conversation. Enablers aren't
necessarily bad people, and that's what makes it so complicated.
(04:22):
So let's talk a little bit about the different types
of enablers. One type of enabler is just a Pollyanna,
like everything's just great, and aren't we all getting along
and aren't we all friendly? It's a little bit immature,
kind of head in the clouds, And so the Pollyanna
enablers are just sort of people who just I think
there's just good in everyone, and you're thinking, I kind
(04:44):
of believe that. But this interaction wasn't Okay, so they
kind of take that good in everyone thing a little
bit too far. When we sort of push the accelerator
on the Pollyannas, we're taken to the toxically positive people. Now,
the toxically positive people will shame other people who aren't
being positive, like I don't like this energy, I don't
(05:05):
like this word narcissism. I don't like that, you know what.
They have their own story and we have to hold
space for their story, like what, Okay, they keep lying
and betraying people, but if that's how you want to
frame it, the toxically positive enablers are a bit more
dangerous than a Pollyanna enablers because they tend to shame
the survivors and say, you're not being positive. This is
(05:26):
a you issue. Maybe if you were nicer, they would
be nicer too, that kind of thing. Then there are
what I call the transactional enablers. These are the enablers
that are somehow benefiting from the narcissistic relationship. This could
be money, this could be resources, this could be status,
it could be tuition, it could be a car. Whatever
it is, they're very much benefiting. And while they're not
(05:50):
transparent about it say, hey, I'm ignoring their behavior because
I'm getting a car out of this. There is this discomfort,
sort of dissonance that they know, like I don't want
to burn this bridge. I'm getting stuff from this narcissistic person,
so I don't want to know it. I don't want
to see it. It is sort of this active I
don't want to see this because then the implication would
(06:12):
be it could sort of throw off this transactional structure
they have with this narcissistic person. Again may not be
happening consciously, but keeping that status quo and not burning
that bridge. There are also trauma bonded enablers. These folks
are tricky because you may have tremendous empathy for them.
You yourself were probably there with the narcissist yourself at
(06:33):
one point. Then you saw it, you did the work,
you did the healing, you're more clear on it. The
trauma bonded enabler is enabling the narcissistic person by justifying
their behavior, by giving it a free pass, by doing
all the things that trauma bonded people do, minimizing their behavior,
and may in some cases even gaslight you. Because for
(06:55):
the trauma bonded person, it is still about maintaining that
tie in that case con to this harmful narcissistic person.
For the trauma bonded enablers, this process is really unconscious.
These are often people you actually may very much care
about or love. Where this dynamic gets the most tricky
(07:16):
is if the trauma bonded enabler is your other parent.
So you have a narcissistic parent, and then the other
parent was trauma bonded to that parent, so they were
enabling their stuff. Now, that trauma bonded parent might have
been very loving to you, very sweet to you, really
was actually the only bright light in your childhood, but
they did keep giving the narcissistic parent a free pass,
(07:37):
which did leave you confused. You go into adulthood, the
enabling becomes clear to you, and then you might have
a very complex set of emotions about that trauma bonded
enabling parent, feeling like how could they have led us
twist in the wind like this? Why don't they see it?
And while you may have empathy for their trauma bondedness
(07:57):
and you may feel guilt about being angry at them,
you may feel very angry at a person who's a
trauma bonded enabler, especially if their presence really influence your
development in your life. Now, listen, some trauma bonded folks
may be mildly narcissistic themselves, so they may not even
take note of the entitlement and the grandiosity and the
(08:19):
arrogance is a thing like get over yourself, you know
that kind of thing. The mildly narcissistic folks also don't
have that much empathy for you, So their lack of
empathy combined with the sense that this behavior might actually
be okay, can mean those folks can be enablers. And
then there are cultural issues, and when it comes to enabling,
(08:39):
the cultural stuff is really really important. When we think
of cultures where it's family first and everything stays within
the family and don't talk about our family business out
of here. The person that does break ranks and might
go to therapy or want to actually call out abusive
stuff in the family, that person will be viewed as
the problem, whereas the family close ranks and protect the
(09:01):
narcissistic person. It may not even be that the family
doesn't see the narcissistic person's behavior is bad, but whatever
sort of cultural rules of order there are. Maybe they
might be sort of patriarchal qualities, They may be related
to other sort of authoritarian structures, may simply be cultures
where again it's family first at all costs. That at
(09:22):
those times, people will often report feeling very gaslighted and
very confused, because they'll say, people know this person's bad,
they're all talking smack inside the family system, but we're
just not allowed to go and get help for that.
And that can leave people in this very confused spot.
Can I get help? Can I talk about this? Am
I the bad person for talking about this? Don't forget
(09:43):
about the flying monkeys. The flying monkeys are absolutely a
form of enabler that is a much more active enabler,
and even in a more terrible level. Not only do
the flying monkeys enable the narcissist, they attack on their behalf.
The smear campaigns, spreading gossip, holding up rumors and innuendo
(10:05):
coming at you, bothering you, stalking you, harassing you. So
to me, the flying monkey maybe the worst form of enabler.
Let me tell you, When a narcissistic person has flying monkeys,
they feel so emboldened because now they literally have someone
out there doing their bidding. The flying monkeys are the
(10:27):
type of enablers that may very well cause the most harm.
As you can imagine, some of these enabling patterns overlap.
But the point again I want to make is the
reason enabling is so insidious is that there are people
in your life you really adore and say, this person's
actually very empathic, very nice, has been a good loyal friend.
But where the cracks began to show was when I
(10:50):
was talking about maybe a mutual narcissistic person in our lives,
and the enabler was more likely to jump to the
narcissistic person's defense. They'll say they're still empathic, I'm still
cool with them around everything except this one relationship. And
you can see then how in some ways enabling relationships
can be even more confusing than the narcissistic ones. In
(11:13):
our next question, Glenn asks, I feel like I'm losing
my mind. I know my brother is a narcissist and
uses every opportunity to gaslight me. The people around him
know how difficult he is, but they never call him out.
I'm so sick of the that's just how he is.
(11:34):
Come on, Glenn, let it go be the bigger person.
So in Glenn's case, here is that all these people
around him again, it's that status quo that's such a
big part of the enabling process, that it's not that
they want to hurt you, but that they don't want
(11:54):
the system to get cracked or in some cases have
to face up with what they already know is an
uncomfortable truth, but it's almost like something that they don't
want to deal with, looking at as any of us
sometimes don't want to when we're in a close relationship
with someone where we've invested time in years and feel like, oh,
I really don't want this to be true of this person.
(12:17):
So what happens is in Glenn's case, who's Glenn is
losing his mind? Glenn knows something to be true, that
his brother's behavior is unacceptable, unhealthy, and frankly toxic. But
what's making it worse is that the people around him.
(12:37):
It's almost worse gaslighting because you're with the narcissistic person,
You're like, Okay, they're gaslighting me. But when the enablers
are saying, let it go, it's just how he is,
or you be the bigger person. The implication when somebody
tells you to be the bigger person. Is that if
you call this person out, then you're being a smaller person.
That's gaslighting. The thing within neighbor is to stay solid
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within yourself that you're very clear in what's happening in
the narcissistic relationship. Have other sort of what I call
gaslight free zones in your life where you can talk
to people and say, this is what my brother did.
Can you tell me what you think of it? And
those people say that is not okay. You then will
(13:23):
feel perhaps more steadfast in the face of the people
who are telling you that you're the problem because you
won't let it go, that you need to be the
bigger person, or they sort of rationalize the behavior by
saying that's just how he is. If I can give
you one piece of guidance, now, how I always tell
you don't call out the narcissist. Double that, and don't
(13:46):
try to convert the enablers. It is so tempting. They
may ask you, what's this narcissism thing you're talking about? Say, well,
it's when a person doesn't have empathy and is entitled
la la la la la. You give them the list.
The other person may not and say okay, cool and
keep going. You may plant to see, but this idea
(14:07):
of you need to see that my brother is narcissistic,
that's not going to work. If anything, by pushing your
experience at them in your assessment of the situation, they're
probably going to double down on No, you're the one
who's the problem. They're not ready to see Glenn's brother
in a clear light or at least understand Glenn's point
(14:29):
of view. For many folks, for a lot of enablers,
they actually know that the behavior that the narcissistic person
is engaging in is toxic. But they don't want to
poke the bear. They don't want to deal with it,
and that not wanting to deal with it. I struggle
with that because in the not wanting to deal with it,
(14:50):
people who are really enduring a lot of abuse have
to keep enduring more because nobody is willing to step
up to the plate. Here's one thing we do know.
There is strength in numbers. When multiple people recognize that
something's not okay. It's not going to change the narcissistic
person's behavior. But the people who are all sharing amongst
(15:11):
themselves this isn't okay. You feel heard, and you feel seen,
and all of those are essential ingredients sort of letting
this go and healing. So I feel for Glenn, and
I understand why why Glenn is losing his mind. What
Glenn needs is some gaslight free zones to at least
have a sounding board and recognize that you're not going
to be able to turn these enablers around overnight. The
(15:34):
best thing that many people can do in a situation
like this is just say, you know why, I'm struggling
with my brother's behavior, because he did this, Because he
did this, and because he did this, stick to observable behavior.
They're still probably going to gaslight you instead of making
it about your brother's narcissism. So to stick to the
behaviors and you'd be surprised maybe a few people will
(15:54):
come around. One of the worst positions to be in
is to be the first person in a group or
a fan family to be the one who recognizes that
the narcissistic person may very well be narcissistic. It's a
little bit like the Boy and the Emperor's and your clothes, right.
He was the first one to probably say it. Maybe
the other people in the parade knew the emperor wasn't
(16:15):
wearing any clothes. The boy saw it and got it
and said it. To be the first person to see
it is actually not particularly an enviable position, because you
may doubt your judgment about it, if you have your
own trauma bonds and your own history with this person,
if you feel like by saying this, you're going to
kind of up end a fantasy about this being a
happy family or a great place to work or something
(16:38):
like that. So it's a lot of guilt for people
who say, I don't want to be the one who
punctures the hole in the balloon that everybody really cares about.
But in the same breath, you may also see not
only the toll that is taking on you, but on
other people in the system. If you are the first
person who gets it, the most important thing you can
do is find sounding boards that might be therapy. It
(16:59):
may be so groups, It may simply be friends who've
seen it for a long time and might say glad
you finally got up with that. And I have to say,
as a therapist who's worked in this space, I remember
many years ago saying someone was sharing me with me
about a sibling. I said, whoh, your brother sounds narcissistic,
and it was actually a bad thing I did. The
(17:20):
person's behavior was so egregious I couldn't let it slip.
That was a bad therapist moment of mine, and I said, oh,
your brother's narcissistic. And the client just reeled back and
said come again and didn't like it because they weren't ready.
And so that was a real lesson for me. Now. Interestingly,
years later that person said, you know, you were the
(17:42):
first person who ever saw it. I didn't take that
as congratulations. I saw that as trying to rush someone.
In a point of view, my work at that point
is a therapist, and actually for anyone, even as a friend,
would be how do you feel, how does their behavior
affect you? Tell me more about those behaviors, helping them
create a vocabulary about how this behavior is affecting them.
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It's so tempting to say that's a narcissist, but it
actually doesn't do anyone any favors unless we can really
frame it and think about it in terms of how
this behavior is affecting us. We will be right back
with this conversation in our next question. Alina writes, do
(18:28):
all narcissists have enablers, not necessarily, but you almost have
to view a narcissist as a plant and the enablers
as water. Without that water, that plant is going to
wither and die. And without enablers, a narcissistic person's grandiosity
(18:51):
and posturing and all of that will fade. You may wonder, then,
what's left If a narcissist doesn't have enablers. You may
see anger, you may see acting out, You may even
see maladaptive behaviors like addiction, and in some cases you
may even see depression. An example of this would be
someone like the character of the Joker, who was somebody
(19:12):
who wasn't getting that validation. He didn't have anyone close
to him, didn't have family, didn't have an audience, and
it just really sort of ate him up from the
inside out. It's actually an interesting illustration of them, but
most narcissistic people do. Keep in mind, narcissistic people are charming,
(19:33):
they're charismatic, they're sociable, they're extroverted. Many people want to
be close to them, and as a result, they often
do have a rather robust social network. They do great
on social media. They post all the time. Everybody likes
their stuff. A lot of people want to be near
them so as long as they're getting validation as well
as have people around them who not only validate them
(19:56):
but let them get away with stuff. The narcissistic a
person is adequately supplied, they might even feel well regulated,
and they go through their lives quite contentedly. But not
all do. And some people have enablers and then they
lose enablers. We might see this in older adults, people
who once had marriages and children and jobs. They may
(20:18):
get older, they may leave the job, they may get
pushed out of the job. The kids may have burned
all their bridges with the parents saying enough's enough. They
may get divorced, their partner may predecease them, partner may
completely cut off from them, and in later life. What
you might see, and I've seen this over and over
again in the family systems of hundreds of clients I've
(20:38):
worked with, is that the narcissistic parent who no longer
has their enablers really kind of goes off to a
very angry, lonely, isolated older age, and they may actually
have difficulty finding placements for them in assisted living or
other kinds of facilities. Because they can often be rather
difficult and combative, so it's not a pretty picture. And
(21:00):
you see a narcissistic person without enablers, most do not
all do, and when they don't, they actually don't do
well because there's nobody any longer propping up their behavior
and letting them get away with stuff. And without enablers,
there's no one making excuses, so even as new people
come in, they'll say this is bad, and there's no
(21:21):
one saying no, no, no, you're reading the situation wrong.
So enablers are not only sources of validation, they're also
sources of excuses, and when those things go away, the
narcissistic person loses a lot of their power. Many keep
their enablers their whole lives, especially if they're from family
systems where it's not okay to step away. And also
(21:41):
people who may have a lot of wealth and power
and privilege may continue to have enablers around them, a
bit like vultures circling something because everyone's waiting for their
piece of the pie, so they may continue to have
enablers around them that prop them up, perhaps waiting for
the reward on the other side. Jonah says, I have
(22:03):
recently realized my dad is a covert narcissist. This has
helped me understand so much about my family. But I'm
having a tough time with feelings towards my mom. I
realize I'm very hurt and angry at her for protecting him,
defending him, staying with him, and giving up her joy
and happiness for a terrible marriage. How can I work
(22:26):
through my hurt and anger while still maintaining a relationship
with my mom? So Jonah's question is one of the
most complicated ones we see around enabling relationships, because, as
I said, the enablers in our lives may be people
who are very important to us, who we do love,
(22:47):
and who we've actually seen suffer. In Jonah's case, his
mother definitely sounds like she had a rough time in
this relationship and that she gave up her life, She
gave up her joy, she gave up her happiness. It's
not like the mom had an easy ride, whereas the
father probably just got away with a lot. Mom just
endured a lot. However, her endurance became a form of
(23:07):
enabling that hurt Jonah. It would have shaped Jonah's developmental experience.
Jonah is hurt and anger absolutely makes sense. But for
a lot of folks in Jonah's position, there's also a
tremendous amount of guilt. My mother's already suffered so much.
My mother's already given up so much joy, so much happiness,
and now I'm one more person piling on This is
(23:28):
where this concept. I've talked about this on Navigating narcissism before,
and I'll talk about it over and over again, is
this concept of these stacked up multiple truths. Multiple things
can be true. Jonah likely loves his mom. Jonah is
hurt by his mom's enabling Jonah is angry. Jonah may
very well feel guilty. What's he supposed to do with this?
(23:51):
All of this stuff can coexist. Being angry at his
mother doesn't mean he can't have a relationship with her.
Like Jonah, Actually there's a benefit if it's possible to
go to therapy with your mother. We often don't think
of that as adults. It's actually going to therapy with
the covert narcissistic father makes absolutely no sense. But with
(24:12):
his mother having that if you will, referee or a
sort of guidance in the room, could really be a
place where Jonah feels safer sharing his anger. Mom, after
years of a marriage to a covert, vulnerable narcissist, has
probably learned to swallow her feelings and will just capitulate
her husband's anger. A therapist could be a great place
(24:35):
for Jonah's mom to make sort of her experience more understood.
And it's very very likely that Jonah's mother feels a
tremendous amount of grief and regret over what happened, but
may not feel that she has the vocabulary to express it.
And keep in mind, after however, many decades of invalidation
Jonah's mother experience in her marriage, she probably doesn't even
(24:58):
feel justified hearing her voice her feelings herself separate from
her husband. So it's possible, and the hard part becomes
how do you maintain a relationship with someone when you
have such a complicated mix of hurt, anger, guilt, and love.
It's small steps and it's good boundaries. I wouldn't advise
(25:20):
Jonah his mom to go on a two week vacation,
but taking little bits of time doing it separate from
his father, and that might be a really important ask
for Jonah. Say, if we're going to spend time together
I don't want him around, and that's a very fair ask,
and to slowly have those opportunities of getting to know
each other. Jonah may feel that there are limits, that
(25:41):
some of his hurt and anger might mean that he
can only go so deep with his mother. He may
not fully trust her and the loss of whether it
be respect or regard he had for his mom for
staying in this in the harm that came to him. Again,
there's only so deep he may be able to go,
which is why also individual therapy in these cases can
be really really important. Just because someone was an enabler
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in your life, especially the one that was a parent,
doesn't mean that there's not a path forward. There absolutely is,
and honestly, in giving a name to these feelings instead
of just staying mired and guilt, but understanding that this
is a really complicated mix of hurt and anger and
grief and guilt and love can mean that there's a
(26:26):
possibility for a conversation, but it's slow. The boundaries have
to be good, you have to trust yourself, and if
it's possible to have someone guiding you in this process
like a therapist, could be incredibly helpful. Alexandra asks About
a year ago, I stopped speaking to my friend who
is a narcissist. Since then, some of our mutual friends,
(26:48):
people I care for deeply told me I should make
amends and reconnect with this narcissistic person. Are they considered enablers?
And how should I respond when they say this? So
to Alexandra, the thing that I would want to know
is have your friends actually listened to your experience to
what happened for you. It's not I can't imagine you
(27:10):
woke up one day and said, Hey, this person in
our friend group is narcissistic. Out. My guess is lots
of things happened over a long time that led you
to come to this assessment. Are your friends aware of this? Listen?
It's not your job to be the narcissism education police,
but to give them context may help them understand why
(27:31):
you've stepped away. One of the dangers in groups of
people is when we say I want nothing to do
with them they're a narcissist. A lot of people still
don't know what this means, and so they're thinking, what,
you don't like her because she looks in the mirror
a lot and post selfies. No, that's not what the
issue is. And so if you were to break it
(27:51):
down and say, listen, this person, this happened, this happened,
this happened, this happened. That left me feeling this, this,
and this, and it is not a healthy space for me.
That's a very different conversation than saying this friend is
a narcissist. It can put you on your back heel
because now people are saying, well, you're the one who's
name calling and it's not really that. But by painting
(28:14):
out a more behavioral picture and an experiential picture of
what you went through, your friends potentially may come up
with more empathy. Now, Alexandra, let's say you've done that,
You've explained all of this to them and said what happened,
and they're still saying you should make amends and reconnect.
Not great, that feels more inably, It really comes down
(28:36):
to how much information they have. They have a full
working knowledge of what happened, and they're pushing you to
do this. I would then really say that you think
through again that status quo. They may just want things
to be the way they were. They might find themselves
tired of having to be your friend and her friend
and kind of having to keep things separate. But if
(28:56):
you can have that conversation and they're aware, but if
they still hold their position, yeah, despite all those things
that she did, Yep, you still need to make amends
if you feel up to it. And Alexandra, I don't
know that you'd want to. Some do, some don't. Is
to say, what is this to you? Why is it
so important to you that this happens? If they give
you some ephemeral while everyone should forgive to move forward,
(29:19):
that's not an answer. Hold their feet to the fire.
See if they tell you what's really on their mind.
A good friend may be disappointed that a friend group
has split up. A really good friend will say, yeah,
I'm bummed out that we're not all one group, but
I understand that you need to do what feels right
to you and I got you, and then proceed to
(29:40):
maybe even have the conversation. Are you comfortable that they're
still friends with that other person? Some people can toe
that line, but it really requires that your friend can
really be able to appreciate and empathize with your point
of view. Gina says, my father is my mom's enabler.
Anytime I bring up her behavior, or even read direct
(30:02):
quotes she's texted to me. He denies it or says
the classic she didn't mean it like that. I'm at
the point I need to go no contact with my mom,
but I'm so afraid i'll lose my dad too. How
do I navigate this? Oh, Gina, isn't one of those
catch twenty two's that these narcissistic situations bring up all
(30:23):
the time in a family. You know, right from the jump,
you can see how enablers, how their gaslighting can be
just as potent as the gaslighting of the narcissistic person.
She's reading direct quotes to the dad from the text
or showing him the tax and he's saying, she didn't
mean it like that, didn't mean it like what? How
(30:44):
do you know? It's really dangerous And I'm just gonna
go on a little bit of a side rant here.
One of the most dangerous things any of us can
do is to draw a conclusion about a person's intention.
Anytime we do that, nine times out of ten, we
make a mess out of a relationship. You do not
(31:05):
know what is going on in someone's head. I get
paid to do this, and I don't know what's going
on in someone's head, I ask them, and I highly
would recommend you do the same. So unless Dad has
gone to Mom to get her to decode her toxic text,
dad doesn't know now and he doesn't know. But again
(31:28):
that's status quo. Enablers wanting to keep everything just the
way it is, is that he's going to say whatever
he needs to say to be able to keep Mom
on the good side of the fence. The challenge with
enablers is that there's a sort of a simplification they're
trying to engage in. It's really, really hard when you
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have someone in your life who's narcissistic that you have
no intention of removing from your life, and then you
have somebody who's being hurt by that narcissistic person, and
you don't want to get rid of both of those
people or you don't want to lose them, right, and
you're trying to be in that sort of middle place
between the two. If I can give all of you
one piece of guidance, if you find yourself in that situation,
(32:11):
do not be the narcissistic person's publicist, because that, in
essence is what enabling is. Let the narcissist make their mistakes,
they're not your mistakes. And if that means this other
person is like that behavior is not okay. Your role
then becomes to foster a relationship with the person being
(32:34):
hurt by the narcissist that helps that person feel heard
and seen and recognized and empathized with. It is possible.
Is it easy? No? But if you care about someone enough,
you'll figure out how to do it. Doesn't mean you're
kicking the narcissistic person to the curb, but to keep
(32:55):
them in your life doesn't mean you have to kick
the other person to the curb. Just remember that. But
in this person's case, that she's now feeling like I
can't do this with Mom anymore. And here's where this
gets tricky. I'm happy to say we're gonna be taken
on your no contact questions as well, because no contact
is its own kind of complex sort of space. But
(33:18):
this idea that will I lose Dad if I go
no contact with Mom? I wish I could sugarcoat that here,
But the answer to that is you might if Dad
is really trauma bonded with and really committed to being
Mom's enabler. When you lose a narcissistic person. When you
put down that absolute boundary, it's not about one person.
(33:41):
There's often a lot of other people you may lose
as well. In some ways, also becomes an uncomfortable place
because people don't like to give ultimatums. But in the
same breath, is Dad willing to In essence, it sort
of feels like he'd be sneaking behind Mom's back to
see you. I cannot tell you how many people I
have walked through the space of is there a way
(34:02):
to kind of keep both? One thing I can say
to Gina, Gina, if Dad matters that much to you,
stop showing Dad the Mom texts, because what you're going
to then have to realize is that a relationship with
Dad means that you don't talk about Mom. He is
not your ally in that space. He is not your
(34:23):
advocate in that space, and he does not want to
see it. If you can have a relationship with Dad
and carve out that piece of talking about Mom, if
you think you can do that, you can have Dad
in your life on that limited basis. And if Dad
starts bringing Mom up, Hey, we're having a nice time.
Maybe next time Mom could come, then you set the
(34:44):
boundary and say no, I love you, Dad, I want
to spend time with you. I don't want to spend
time with her. It can feel painful if ultimately Dad
sort of start stepping back because Mom is actually going
at him. How dare you get together with her? Because
you know Dad's going to be foolish enough tell her
the truth. But at the end of the day, if
he does, you gotta remember your dad can make his
(35:05):
own choices, and it's painful if you feel that you're
on the losing side of that choice. Brittany wrote, I've
just left the narcissistic boss I worked for for nearly
twenty years. As part of my healing, I'm realizing I
was enabling a lot of toxic behavior. How do I
process the fact that my behavior hurt a lot of people? Brittany,
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That's a tough one. So this actually is a spot
where I can talk about something that is sometimes termed
moral injury. Moral injury is the negative emotions that occur
when a person believes that they have done something bad
that hurts someone else. It's an experience. It almost feels
(35:51):
like post traumatic stress that we have when we feel
as though we were doing something Often in the line
of our or our work that ended up with people
getting harmed. So it might be somebody having followed orders
exactly as they were supposed to, but by following orders,
(36:12):
a person or many people got hurt, and although on
paper the person did the right thing, those people got hurt,
and the person experiencing moral injury will feel responsible for this.
One of the strongest examples we had of this was
in the pandemic, where a lot of healthcare workers when
we didn't have enough PPE, we didn't have enough beds,
(36:32):
we didn't have enough spaces in emergency rooms, were actually
feeling that the kinds of decisions they were having to
make could have ended up resulting in significantly worse illness
or even death for people, and they felt a sense
of moral injury. It wasn't their fault, there wasn't enough
PPE and gloves and masks and all of that stuff,
but that the people were getting sicker or dying. That
a lot of healthcare workers took that upon themselves, And
(36:53):
there's now research showing that that happened for people at
that time, and the way we carry moral injury ourselves psychologically, again,
it looks a lot like post traumatic stress, a lot
of anxiety, a lot of rumination, a sort of a
sense of vigilance, attention, a self blame. It's an incredibly
and comfortable space to occupy. And in this case, Britney
(37:15):
recognizes that in my job, doing my job, probably being
told you even did your job well by enabling this
toxic behavior, that in retrospect there is a recognition that
people got hurt by this. I'll tell you this right now.
One thing we know about moral injury is we still
haven't come up with good psychological treatments for it. And
one of the most important things that somebody in Britney's
(37:37):
situation could do is talk it out. I could sit
here till I'm blue in the face saying clearly you
were trying to survive, and that is totally understandable. But
I also, in the same breath recognize that you may
have hurt people in a very real way who are
also struggling, and say, well, you know you didn't mean
to I can't you know what I'm saying. We're back
(37:57):
to that issue of intention. So for Brittany, this is
very much an issue of going into a space and
talking it out. Now, if we want to lift from
systems like twelve step, and to me, probably one of
the most powerful aspects of twelve step and of working
a program is the aspect of making amens. Having watched
(38:19):
patients do that over the years, having worked with many
clients who are going through the making a men's phase,
I find it particularly profound because making amends is done
without an agenda. This isn't about them accepting your apology.
This is about you rolling up and saying I'm aware
that some of these decisions hurt you. I was part
of that, and I'm genuinely sorry for the pain you experienced.
(38:44):
And that's that, no explaining, no nothing, And for brittany
part of your process may very well be over time,
and again this would be something one made me to
explore very carefully in therapy. And there may even be
because it's a workplace issue, there could be life liability
issues involved in this. So you have to proceed very
very carefully. But if there is a way that might
(39:07):
help them feel more whole and in making amends, that
might also be something that you explore. A lot of
people are able to connect the dots, they're able to
see that I see where this decision came from and
I see the person who was executing it, Brittany. Doesn't
mean that people are going to be fond of you,
but they may also be able to connect the dots
(39:27):
to up here and keep finally in mind that you
were hurt by this process too. It's so easy to
get lost and the pain you may have caused that
you forget that this experience also significantly harmed you twenty
years in a toxic workplace situation. That's no joke and
(39:47):
it is really harmful. So you do have a process
of healing to go through too, and it is very
likely that some of the people that you believe you
hurt were also aware of the hurt that you were
experiencing as well. Brittany's question isn't an easy one and
it's not one that could really be resolved without therapy.
This is definitely not a self fix kind of a thing.
(40:09):
And so through therapy determining whatever that path forward looks
like for you, and that many of us sometimes have
to carry these burdens for a long time and may
determine that there are other ways we can pay them forward.
You may then engage in some form of mentorship, working
with people in a volunteer capacity, doing something that you
(40:30):
feel at least pays back or even makes things right,
depending on whatever industry you're working in, And while it
may not turn back the clock, it may at least
help you feel that not only are you not contributing
to a problem, but that you may be protecting people
from things like this happening in the future. My conversation
(40:51):
will continue after this break. Samantha asks, is it necessary
to remove people from your life who don't get it
when trying to separate from a narcissist. Listen, if we
did that, we are going to have some real small
(41:14):
social networks really fast. I mean, Samantha, it's tempting. And
I talk in my own work of something I call
the toxic dump, when once you get out of a
primary narcissistic relationship, you kind of look around and say, WHOA,
I've felt a lot of unhealthy stuff happening. But as
you are separating from a primary narcissistic relationship, that's going
(41:35):
to be enough psychological energy. If there are people around
you who are second guessing you, doubting you, blaming you,
shaming you, guilting you, or trying to give the narcissistic
person a free pass at that time, significant boundaries are
needed because you're going through enough of a difficult experience.
(41:55):
For example, if it was a divorce, that having to
manage all of these dissenting opinions can be really, really overwhelming.
When you get through the initial crisis of separating from
a narcissistic relationship, which can last a while if you
account for things like post separation abuse, but it can
really take a while before you feel like you've separated
from that relationship. Then as you kind of lift your
(42:18):
head over that dust cloud, is the time when you
look around and say, are some of these people in
my life healthier? Are they not? And then to ask
yourself when I needed a friend, was my friend more
interested in moralizing about marriage than she was to be
there for me? Or was my father complaining more about
losing his golf buddy than being a father to me?
(42:40):
Those then become the difficult conversations you have with yourself
and set boundaries and make those choices accordingly. I got
to tell you, trying to do it all the same time,
it's probably a little overwhelming, and you question, Samantha, you
ask is it necessary? No, it's not necessary. What we
learn as we navigate this territory of narcissism is discernment
(43:07):
about how deep or not deep we let people into
our lives. You realize that that friend who is that
moralizing not able to be there for you person As
you have another conversation with her, you recognize that you
leaving your toxic marriage was actually really unsettling for her
as she started wondering about her own marriage, that she
(43:29):
was talking from a place of fear. You may still
feel as though some connective tissue was cut, but you
may still feel as though there's a place for her
in your life. Discernment means that everyone doesn't get to
have a front row orchestra seat to that theater called
your life. That some people are going to be in
(43:49):
the cheap seats and some people get to be backstage,
and you get to make choices about that by really
paying attention and saying I value myself in a way
to make choices in my life about people who are
good for me and who helped me grow and who
are safe. Fact is is that discernment is everything when
(44:09):
we're thinking about narcissistic relationships. Charlotte asks, why is it
that as I've begun healing. I have more contempt for
the enabler than the person with the narcissistic personality. Who, Charlotte,
that's a question. I love that question too. This is
so common. The funny thing about the day we finally
(44:33):
get the narcissistic personality piece, we recognize that it's not
good for us, we recognize the harm in it, we
recognize that it's not going to change. We may even
understand how their backstory made their narcissistic personality and still
give ourselves permission to set a boundary or get out.
That almost feels more clear to us than this really
(44:55):
messy space of the enablers, people who we may have
let far more deep into our lives, we may even
have talked about the problems in this relationship, been very open,
very vulnerable. So once you get the narcissistic person figured out,
like okay, that's their personality, But with the enablers, especially
if they're not narcissistic, but people who really may be
(45:17):
sort of again, whether it's for a transactional reason or
a pollyanna ish reason, or a trauma bonded or just
plain old denial reason, that they could let you down
in that way, despite having opened up to you, despite
you having had what felt like a friendly relationship, that
feels like a deeper betrayal because your feeling is they
(45:38):
do know better, I've seen them know better, but for
whatever sort of thing that they're stuck on around this
narcissistic relationship, that they can't get unstuck and just be
there for me. Listen, you may not even be asking
the enabler to agree with you that the narcissistic person
is narcissistic. You just need them to be there for you,
(46:00):
to not gaslight you, to hold space for your point
of view. That's all you need, because not everyone's going
to read like I don't know about the narcissism peace,
but I totally agree that this person has treated you
horribly all these years, and I get why you need
to step away. That is sometimes, in fact, often more
than enough. And for that reason, the contempt we may
(46:24):
have for the enablers, you saw that they did get
it at times, they'd even endured some of the narcissistic stuff,
especially if the enabler feels it all self interested that
it's as though if I do this, then I may
not get those tickets to the super bowl, or if
I do this, then may not be able to get
to go to the beach vacation this year, Like you
(46:46):
chose the beach vacation over me. Not a good feeling.
And so I think that there's certain kinds of enabling
experiences that feel so much more invalidating because it was
basically they were playing both sides of the street, and
that doesn't feel good at least a narcissist is just
on that side of the street. But when someone is
sort of being your friend but then not really there
(47:08):
for you, that can actually feel more betraying. Max writes,
my cousin's wedding is coming up, and I'm going to
be in touch with my enabling on a lot during
the planning process. How can I control myself without feeling triggered? Oh,
the family wedding. There's just so much happening at family weddings,
(47:30):
and then there's a bunch of strangers you don't know
who bring their own toxic mess to the party. But
in this particular case, that with your cousin's wedding coming up,
that is going to put you in proximity with family
members you may traditionally not if you're involved in planning,
or you're a member of the wedding party, or you're
actually the person in the bride or the groom, whatever
(47:50):
it is, you are now having proximity to somebody who
may be an enabler of another toxic person in this
family system, which is very unsettling for you. And most
of the time you don't need to do that. One
of the most useful tools you can have when you're
(48:11):
dealing with narcissistic people or enabling people is so simple.
It's preparation. You know what your aunt's about, so what
that means is And I wish we could almost view
boundaries as these little gates around us that we could
pull up. You know they go shutters that go on
windows when you're out of town or businesses closed at
(48:33):
the end of the day. Imagine those around you, and
I know how they go click click click click click
click audible sound like okay, going to see the auntie
enable click click click, click, click click click maybe up
to here, Okay, toxic person. The whole thing goes around you.
But that click click click as silly as it seems,
it's a visual and an audible sensation that you can
(48:55):
have of like going in with the aunt. Click click click,
imagining that around you, something protecting you, that sense of
self awareness, giving yourself, for example, permission to step away
when the enabling AUNT is enabling or signing off on
the toxic behavior of a key narcissistic family member. Knowing
(49:18):
is so much because you really can gird yourself again.
Click to click those shutters up and down as you need.
It may very well be that another time you're talking
to the cousin and you may love the cousin. Shutter
comes down, Aunt comes in the room, shutter goes back up.
You might want to put that shutter on a remote
control as you plan this wedding. But the feeling is
(49:39):
self possessed about this, the enabling aunt being an enabler
is not a surprise. It is unsettling. And when we
are triggered or activated, I prefer thinking of it like
the pluck of a string that keeps reverberating for a while.
But when that happens, it's our nervous system saying I
don't like this, and what we need then is sometimes
(50:00):
time to come down. After those encounters, if you are
in a situation where you can get out of the situation,
in this particular setting, one rule could be, as soon
as Auntie starts enabling, I'm stepping out. I can work
with this. We will talk about flower arrangements and who's
gonna get aunt Melba up from Florida or whatever. I
(50:21):
do all that, But the minute this person starts signing
off on toxic person's behavior, I am going to start
excusing myself from the conversation. Not abruptly, not dramatically. They
may think you need to go to the bathroom a lot,
but just get up and step away, give yourself a
second to talk yourself down. Say I can step away,
(50:42):
I can give myself permission to do this. I can
pull those shutters up. But this is a very intentional,
aware process. The more of that you have, the more
you don't feel surprised and shocked, and again, the more
you might even feel more in command of what this
entire experience is like. Good luck to your cousin. Enabling
(51:03):
takes the harm caused by the narcissistic relationship and magnifies
it one hundredfold. The very people you thought you could
turn to for support all of a sudden feel as
though they are allied with the narcissistic person, and that's
a moment that not only feels really gaslighting, it can
(51:24):
be unsettling, uncomfortable, and magnify existing issues you're having, including shame,
self blame, and guilt. We put so much focus on
the narcissistic people that we forget how much of this
story is playing out with lots of other people in
our lives, and to recognize that somebody that we actually
(51:46):
may care about isn't able to fully appreciate the experience
that we're having can be heartbreaking. One of the most
difficult things about enabling is that in a healthy situation,
you're not asking people to choose sides. It's not as
though you're saying to the enabling person, do not have
(52:06):
anything to do with that narcissistic person anymore. It doesn't
quite work that way. We may want that to happen,
but it doesn't always work that way. That sometimes all
we need from the enabler, all we wanted, I should say,
from the enabler, is that they could have simply held
space and seen our hurt, our loss, our pain, and
(52:27):
our experience, because for most human beings, being seen and
having someone bear witness to our pain is an incredibly
healing experience. For someone to not do that, and the
sense that they may be doing it to maintain some
status quo or in a way that helps or preserves them,
(52:48):
can really really create a schism and break our hearts
in a way that's very different than what happens in
the narcissistic relationship. I'm so glad we didn't ask Doctor
Rominy episode on enabling, because it's a thing. I have
to say that once people get narcissism. Don't get me wrong, devastation, devastation, devastation.
(53:09):
But it's almost like there's a playbook for that. Okay, yeah, insecurity,
got it, grandiosity, invalidation, got it, got it, got it
all right, So it's like, got it right, there's a roadmap.
I'm not saying it's an easy roadmap. I'm not saying
it's easy territory with the enablers. It's like the wild West.
It's just open territory. Like my sister I love, and
then this happens my best friend from college, and then
(53:30):
there's an enabled thing. It is incredibly complicated space. Enablers
don't just bring up simple feelings. I'm not saying the
narcissistic people do either. But the feelings are so complicated,
and then if you think it's bad going through narcissistic abuse,
the shure all those enablers coming in there is absolutely overwhelming.
(53:52):
So this was a really really important Q and A,
because this is a show for you, the survivors, and
so keep in mind that when the enabling's happening, it
can really really make the narcissistic abuse feel so much worse.
So I'm so glad we did this.
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