June 5, 2025 • 60 mins
In a world that rewards power grabs, Jacinda Ardern chose a different path. The former prime minister of New Zealand, who led her country through the Christchurch massacre and COVID, talks with Katie about leading through heartbreak and crisis, why kindness isn’t weakness, and the courage it takes to step away from power. It’s all detailed in her new book A Different Kind of Power and the behind-the-scenes doc Prime Minister, out June 13.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Jasenda Ardurn. Your official title is the honorable Dame. What
do I have?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is your I go to tell you because I
prefer people not to use it. Think you want me
to say it is problematic for me officially, it would
be the right Honorable Dame to cenda it's too much.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It's too much, I'll say, I'll just say just send it,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I prefer.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric, And this is next question.
Authoritarianism is on the rise, democratic norms are frame and
my guest today says, it sometimes feels like the world
is one big dumpster fire. But Dane Jersenda ar Dern,
(00:53):
the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, offers a different
kind of power, one rooted and compassionate and kindness. Now
a fellow at Harvard, she's reflecting on her leadership in
a new memoir called a Different Kind of Power, as
well as the upcoming documentary Prime Minister, which is out
on June thirteenth. What is it like to lead through crisis,
(01:17):
become a mother in office? And why is stepping away
from power sometimes a symbol of strength and not weakness?
And in a time of extreme disillusionment, she reminds us
that optimism isn't naive. In fact, it's necessary. First of all,
I'm so thrilled to meet you. I've been such an
(01:39):
admirer of yours for many years, so I can't believe
I'm finally getting a chance to sit down and talk
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. So
thank you for having me and on this special day.
Books finally out in the world after two years.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I know, do you feel like you had another baby?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Someone at the very beginning described to the process of
book writing in that way. It's you know, it's terrible.
You go through this journey and you're swearing this out
yourself that you will never do it again, and then
it arrives and you're so overwhelmed and excited and happy
that you forget and you do it again.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So are you saying there's another one in you?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
No? No, I've a number of times swore off it
as I was. As I was going through the process,
someone once told me never say never, though, But I
certainly don't have plans for another other than the children's book,
which is out at the end of September.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh wow, So yeah, you do have another.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It's a very different experience writing a children's definitely very
done both.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I should say writing a children's book is a lot
more fun.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's a lot more fun. It's simple and joyful, is
how I describe it. Whereas this was therapy with a deadline.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm sure, and I'm so glad you wrote it. I
think we all need a different kind of power now
more than ever. So what is this different kind of
power of which you speak?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's I think, on the face of it, people will think, oh, okay,
so it's just talking about different types of leadership, And
to a certain extent that's true. I mean, one of
the things I wanted to share was what I believe
to be the strengths of compassionate and empathetic leadership, and
to also counter some of the assumptions that we have
(03:21):
about those forms of leadership, especially in politics. Thus so
often equated with weakness or indecision or lack of resilience,
and therefore as though you cannot succeed or thrive in
politics if that's the leadership style that you subscribe to.
So I wanted to push back against that notion, but
(03:42):
I also wanted to share the strength that sits behind
so many of those things that we often characterize as.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Weakness or a female.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Or female that is often true, but without actually you know,
I've met a number of people who had say have
the same experience, is so imposter syndrome or empathy. We
see weaknesses with those traits. I wanted to talk about
the strength of those the power of some of those traits.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And have you met men with those traits?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I have. I have worked with them. I have worked
with them. I don't think that my colleague will mind
me saying this, but I talk a bit about our
finance minister who went on to become our deputy Prime Minister.
He was someone with extraordinary empathy during COVID. I remember
him coming up to my office and just being distraught
(04:36):
because he'd read a number of letters that morning that
had come in from business owners who were struggling to
see how they would survive during COVID, and he was
so personally moved by every story, was recounting to me
what he'd read on the page, and you know, was
working through you know, would ex policy make a difference
for that person or did we need to tweak why policy?
(05:00):
I was someone who was guided so much by compassion,
So yes, I do see it in others, but there's
not always the incentive in our system to spotlight that.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
It seems to me and I'm sure to many many
people in this country and in fact globally, just send it.
And I know you tell people to call you to
send us, so I'm going to do that. But this
kind of power seems is I would say to send it,
not as send it and the world does feel like
a dumpster fire. Yeah, strongman Rain here and abroad. Did
(05:35):
you feel there was a real urgency to write this
book now, given what we're witnessing on a worldwide and
certainly in this country.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I started writing after I left office, and she was
a bit of a journey because I left the New
Zealand Parliament in April twenty twenty three, and after I'd
announced that I was standing down. You know, I got
the question about a book, and I was quite vehement
that I wouldn't do it, you know, in part because
I think rightly or wrongly, political memoir is solved and
(06:06):
framed as being your opportunity to put your view on
what happened in your own words, and whether you intend
for it to be or not I think that's naturally
framed has been PEPs defensive or you know, trying to
correct your critics. I didn't really feel like I wanted
to do that or needed to do that. Feel it,
(06:27):
history's just going to tell your story, no matter what
or how you influence it. And then someone started, you know,
a friend really asked whether or not that had to
be the kind of memoir that I wrote. And I
really thought about that, you know, this idea of instead
using it as an opportunity to humanize leadership and speak
to not just prospective politicians but people who might self
(06:51):
exclude because they have doubts about their own leadership style.
And I thought that's a book that I would feel
motivated to write. And I felt that two years ago.
You know, that was at a time when even then,
you know, when things have changed a lot since then,
even then, you didn't see much of a spotlight on
alternative forms of leadership. But I still felt that was
(07:14):
what voters were looking for. I felt that's what people
were looking for, and I still feel that now. I
think there's a disconnect between the leadership that we see
and what people are seeking, and we've unfortunately, I think,
interpreted that just because we have a certain type of
leadership and power in different parts of the world, that
that's indicative of where everyone is at. And I don't
(07:35):
believe that to be true.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
But what do you think is causing that disconnect? You know?
I just let me read this from a recent Washington
Post article. A conservative nationalist backed by President Donald Trump
was elected to Pauland's presidency over the weekend, capping a
string of tightly fought contests that analysts say underscore the
growing strength of far raid and populist parties in Europe,
(07:58):
fueled in part by the end influence of the mag
of movement from across the pond. They're talking about the
new president of paul And, a gentleman named Carol Naaki.
I guess is how you pronounce his name? But it
seems as if these strong men are gaining power all
over the world, and we're seeing this trend toward autocracies,
(08:20):
and yet you believe that's not what people want. Then
I guess the question is why is it happening?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Then? So I think if we dig a little bit
deeper into this question of if we're seeing there's two
things at play. There's the issues itself that people are facing,
and then there's the way that politicians are then choosing
to respond to that. The issues are real. I think
we have deep financial insecurity, We have a sense of
(08:46):
disruption to our lives and the aftermath of COVID that's
deeply unsettling. Everything we thought you could rely on has
been completely disrupted in our worlds, regardless of where you're from.
But also that old notion and politics of every generation
perhaps been better off than the last. I don't think
people believe that to be true anymore, and that is disruptive.
(09:09):
Nor in this rapid technological disruption, do I think people
think that their livelihoods are secure. So and amongst all of.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That fear your immigration, by the way.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And so in amongst all of that fear and insecurity,
there's a lot of power in the way politicians then
articulate or try and make sense of that to a voter,
or manipulate it, weaponize, is what I would say. You know,
you have two choices. When you're a politician and you've
got a situation where people are fearful, you can weaponize
(09:39):
it and use blame. As we often see and we
sing in large parts of the world, blame of migrants,
blame of others, those who are causing your financial insecurity,
or the alternative is that you actually answer the problem
sitting in front of you. Because there are very genuine
issues that politicians should be tackling, but they won't be
tackled with a SoundBite. They will take work, you know,
(10:02):
thoughtful policy. I think collective multilateralism there is still a
place for that, because you cannot geographically isolate yourself from
the impacts of disease from climate and nor can you
only ever hit your competitive with trade barriers. So that
is the complexity of the world that we operate in.
And I think, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But I feel like people just having covered this for
so long, Yeah, I feel that people aren't necessarily receptive.
I mean, I'm making this massive generalization to complexities and
they want simple answers. And because they're fearful, that moves
into anger. Because people are angry, that moves into being
(10:47):
susceptible to that kind of weaponization. So how do we
meet people more receptive to an approach of problem solving
but also not other rising aren't blame, you know, I mean,
I think that is the existential question. Of our time.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I mean, the wider politicians reach for those easy, simple
messages because they're easy and simple, they can reach people
they were and they can really grab you. But the
long term consequence of that is actually dire for our
society and our communities, and it actually doesn't solve the problems.
So whether or not this is a long term political solution,
(11:27):
that's a real question, because as soon as people see
actually their lives aren't better or aren't different, then they
go hunting again. This is really interesting to me if
you dig into the research from the last European elections,
they looked at people who switched their voters to far
right parties and found that roughly only a quarter were
doing so because they believed in the ideology. Others felt
(11:48):
disenfranchised or felt that their system was broken, or there
was a singular policy that might have attracted them to that.
But that sends a message that actually, at the moment,
there is this disquiet and people are looking around, casting
around for the answers. And in Canada and in Australia
they elected two prime ministers who on election night chose
(12:11):
to use their victory speeches to talk about kindness, and
those were two individuals who were successfully elected by their people.
I do think that there are a number of voters
seeking an alternative, and particularly when we work really hard
on delivering the answers and solutions people are looking for,
that will make a difference.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on
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(13:18):
or book your own free personalized fitting. Your book is
an opportunity to tell your whole story and about your childhood.
You grew up in Morinsville, is that my correctly New Zealand.
(13:39):
It's a rural dairy farming community. It's about two hours
south of Auckland. Your dad was a police officer, Your
mom worked in your school's cafeteria, and you and your
sister Louise were the first in your family to go
to college. Right, What was it as a kid that
lit the spark in you? Or was it at ember
(14:00):
it's slowly intensified over time. When did you decide I'm
going to be a leader? I didn't, and it's a
kind of decided, yeah, what you would be? Right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
It's a great question because we have this assumption that
in politics, because it's such a cut and thrust place,
that you must enjoy the sport of it yourself, and
that in itself must be quite enticing. Whereas actually a
lot of the politicians I've met, they're there in spite
of the politics, are there because you know, they saw
something in the community that they wanted to change, or
something about you know, policy or law that they felt
(14:31):
was unfair. There'll be something that motivated them. For me,
it was, you know, even at the time, if I
wouldn't have articulated this way, I just, you know, when
I observed things that didn't feel fair, you know, consident
have some of the basic things that I had. That
early experience I think probably just sparked a bit of
a desire to be a part of making change, and
(14:55):
also I was raising a very service orientated household, and
politics to me, you know, when done right, is an
active service. So if you wanted to be a part
of making change, the best way to do it was
to go and volunteer for a political party, and I
did that. I didn't believe that I would end up
front of house as it were.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Right, you thought you'd be behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, and I thought I was reasonably well suited to that,
even though actually sometimes even then I struggled with the
intensity of the roles. But circumstance, random set of events
being asked often enough, all culminated and me finding myself
in Parliament. But from there, the mental of leadership was
not only something I wouldn't seek, something I actively told
(15:37):
people I did not want.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
And yet things changed really because of circumstances. But before
we talk about how you became an unlikely prime minister,
you were almost crippled by anxiety and impostor syndrome and
feeling that you weren't enough. And I wonder how through
the years, because so many particularly women, I think, feel
(16:01):
that way, perhaps from cultural conditioning or societal norms, but
how were you able to ultimately compensate for that or
do you still feel like it past her still? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I know.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I see this story because it actually, you know, it's
quite comforting. But one of the female pro miniss I
had the privilege of working for was someone called Helen Clark.
She was incredible, She lived New Zealand for nine years
and after she left office someone content I was. She
just always came across to me so self assured. And
she tells the story of someone calling her to suggest
(16:36):
to her that she might consider becoming the head of
the UN Development Program. And I was sitting in an
auditorium when she said she gave her response. She said
to them, oh, I'm not sure that I have enough
experience and aid and development And they said to her
down the phone, but Helen, you ran a country. And
so as soon as I heard that, I thought, oh,
so it's not just me who immediately moves to that,
(17:00):
you know, deficit approach of all of the reasons you
can't do something. Can I know I'm not alone in that?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
No, And men always think they're overqualified, which is so serious,
and women, if they look at themselves, they say the
same thing. I couldn't do that. I'm not qualified.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, well, I mean that didn't really change for me,
but the way I see that trait has changed. And
you know, I use the word anxious. I always just
describe myself as a bit of a warrior. You know.
I'm the kind of person that if there's risk on
the horizon, I'll immediately start planning for the strategies to
manage that risk. You know, actually that's probably quite helpful
(17:37):
when you're in a leadership role. You know, when you
have a confidence gap, you just instinctively over prepare. You
want to know more about the issues so that you're
ready to make decisions, and you'll bring in other people
to help with advice and expert knowledge. That's also quite
helpful when you're a leader. So I stopped seeing these
things as weaknesses so long as you're able to keep
(18:00):
them in check, because I know for many those feelings
can be crippling, and that's where our counsel that's not beneficial.
But if you are able to see the strengths, then
maybe that is.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But you became Prime Minister when you were what thirty
seventies old, which is insane, and you became prime minister
when you realize you were pregnant, right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, this is the I guess the real contrast. Everyone
saw me as a young prime minister, but as an
expectant mother I was The medical term was geriatric, So
I had one of those Yeah, so common. Why don't they.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Share theatric pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
We should start the campaign here. I'm pro seasoned mother.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
But I mean I watched a documentary that's coming out soon,
and you talk about this in your book, but I
was in awe of your ability to manage everything. I mean,
I think your husband, Clerk serves a tremendous amount of
critic absolutely holding down the flour and parenting up babysitting.
(19:04):
Some father still describe it, but I do think, wow,
that was intense.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It was, and I think this is one of the
things that I'm so grateful that the documentary captures in
a way that I tried to do in the book.
But it just gives you that extra.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Layer and the visual, visual intimacy of very powerful Well
that that was Clark picking up a camera and filming
behind the scenes, just because for no other reason than
he just thought, maybe this is this will be important,
Maybe this will be you know, a moment in.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
History of swords. But what I'm really pleased he captured is,
you know, in amongst that notion which probably invariably happens
when there are so few people who have done a
thing like unfortunately I was only the second woman in
the world to have a baby whobbing an office. The
Buddho was the and so you can I think sometimes
(20:03):
feed that notion that women can do it all. And
I wanted to demonstrate, yes, women can, but they shouldn't
do it alone. And so I think the documentary shows
I was never alone, right, I was very well supported.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I know you were worried about framing it as you
were a superwoman and that look, you know I can
run a country and raise a daughter.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, we should never lift the bar that high, that
expectations too much for anyone. In fact, you know, I
remember one of the things of the experience of becoming
a mother. I would talk to my friend about this
all the time. How do women do this on their own?
How do they do it on their own? Those were
the heroes. If I was ever going to talk about superwomen,
(20:43):
it would be that group of women. And I started
thinking about it in policy terms, what are our policies
doing to support those parents, and of course not all
of them, exclusively women, those parents who are doing this
job on their own. I want to do more to support.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Your daughter, Neive. I thought it was very funny when
your mom was of like, Nive, that's an interesting name.
What were some of the other choices which made me translation,
I'm not crazy about that my name.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
My mom is the most gorgeous human being. You could
not ask for a more supportive mother, you know, just amazing.
And there's something so universal about that moment. Now she's
been right. You know, I love the name. I love
the name.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
It made me laugh though.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, she's you know, she's always had the ability though,
because of course with a parent, you're always thinking about
the wellbeing of your child. And I still remember the
morning after one of our elections where we'd lost but
I was still in Parliament, but I was in the
back bed, you know, I was in the opposition again,
and it was such a hard place to be, so dispiriting.
Morning after her coming into my room and sitting on
(21:47):
the end of my bed and just saying, you still
really want to do this? So, Mom, I just got
elected yesterday. It's a three year contract. But she's just yeah,
always just been so.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So I know that that fall of twenty eighteen, after
Neve was born, there was a photo of you holding
her well seated on the floor of the UN General Assembly.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Tybal photos so terrible. Why, oh well, you can see
that we have I was trying to explain this to someone.
You can see that we don't know this sum If
you look at the full spray, you can see I'm
craning my neck around because all I could hear. This
was not a full room, this was not the General
Assembly in session. It was a special event for Nelson Mandela.
(22:29):
And I'd just gone up and spoken and we hadn't
planned for Clark and need to come over, but she'd
woken up from her net, so he bought her over
and there was lots of space, so they sat down
on the floor when I came off from speaking, and
I'm holding her, making stupid phases, you know, just doing
their thing. And I just see and you can't see
the media up in the UN General Assembly that all
(22:52):
behind closed mirrored kind of rooms and an overhang. And
I sit to our ambassador at the UN. I said,
what's it?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Noise?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
He said, Oh, the media are sit in those rooms.
Oh do they there? I am back at least making
these awful faces. And so that's that moment that apparently
was historic, was just just a very regular, spontaneous moment
for us as a family.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
But I think it became but it became very symbolic
I think of women's potential again, wanting to issue this
whole super woman moniker. It did, I think help normalize
the fact that leaders could be mothers, yeah, and that
(23:40):
women could both have children and lead a country.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But that it will always continue to be It won't
always be leney, and it won't always be easy. And
that was there was also something that the book gave
me a chance to share behind the scenes because in
amongst us, you know, historic photo, I was really struggling
with managing different time zones. Breastfeeding never came easy for me,
(24:10):
and so there's this extra layer that was always going on,
and in that extra layer is something very universal. There's
a story for so many women, and I wanted to
share that as well, not for pity or compassion, but
actually just to say it doesn't matter where your station is,
or your role or what you're doing, the experience of
(24:32):
parenting as a great leveler, and maybe that will help
humanize people in public life a little bit as well,
because we could probably do with a bit of humanization
of one another.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Perhaps the story behind the photo. Yeah, you know, I
think about the period of time just sender when you
were the Prime Minister and good lord. Yeah, it was
just one crisis after another. I think you truly burst
onto the world world stage six months later in March
(25:03):
of twenty nineteen, when a far right Australian man killed
fifty one worshipers at that mask in christ Church, live
streaming the attack on Facebook. Tell me about the moment
you heard this was happening, and how you were able
to summon the strength and the leadership that were so
(25:25):
required at that moment.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, and I remember that day so well. And of course,
you know, when you're first presented with information, you know,
you get it in bits. And so I was on
my way, I was in a van with a local mayor,
on my way to visit a school when my pre
secretary handed me the phone and just said, you know,
there's a there's been a shooting. And over the course
(25:51):
of quite a short period of time, I learned that
a mosque was involved, and they weren't sure whether or
not it was a series of attacks coordinated it was,
but just that information gave a really early insight as
to perhaps what this might be. And it wasn't too
much later that we heard that he had prepared a manifesto,
(26:13):
a manifesto just full of hate, and he'd sent it
to my office, learning that he had deliberately targeted people
during Friday prayers in order to maximize the number of casualties.
But not only that he'd done it because he had
an intention to try and create a war. He wanted
(26:35):
there to be retaliatory acts. That was part of his plan,
and also part of his plan was to become infamous himself.
And so New Zealand has just rejected that. You know,
as much as people may comment on the role that
I had to play as Prime Minister, in many ways,
I simply saw myself as leading out what was a
(26:56):
very New Zealand response, which was a complete rejection of
what he had tried to do. You know, an entire
nation who were gripped and united by grief, and a
Muslim community who showed such enormous grace towards New Zealanders
in that moment, opened mosques, opened their arms, allowed us
(27:19):
to join with them in that period of grief. It
will ever be one of the most deeply moving and
sad experiences I've had in my life. But I feel
so humble to have been in that role during that
period as well.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
In a press conference after the attack, you said, quote,
many of the people affected by this extreme violence will
be from refugee and migrant communities. New Zealand is their home.
They are us, and I think that freeze us echoed
around the world and did come to symbolize a different
kind of leadership, particularly during a period when immigrants were
(27:58):
being so dem eyes. Do you know one of the.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Things that I absolutely, I mean so much during this
period of events just crushed all of us. But learning
that two of the victims, one was a father from
Syria who had brought his family to New Zealand, well really,
(28:25):
I mean bought implies some kind of choice, but had
come to New Zealand for the safety and sanctuary of
being outside of Syria at that time, and he and
his son died. And I felt such responsibility because here
we were a nation that was meant to be a
form of safe harbor for that family, and they lost
(28:49):
their father and son, leaving behind a young girl, a sister,
a daughter, another son who was injured, and their mother
got to know that family a little bit, and the
fact that they, amongst others, were victims just absolutely devastated me.
So this idea that here we had a community he
(29:11):
intended when he undertook that attack to other our Muslim community.
And I really credit New Zealanders for the view that
they were just not going to let that happen. That
it didn't matter how long you had called New Zealand home,
it was home. It was home.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Hi everyone, it's me Kitty Couric. You know, if you've
been following me on social media, you know I love
to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of
my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,
Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman and Ininagarten. So I started a
free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and
(29:57):
kitchen mustaves. Just sign up correct dot com slash good Taste.
That's k A t I E c o U r
ic dot com slash good Taste. I promised your taste
buds will be happy. You did. You describe a phone
(30:22):
call with President Trump in your book after the attack,
in which you discussed what might happen to the terrorists,
and he asked you if you were calling the gunman
that you said to him, yes, this was a white
man from Australia who deliberately targeted our Muslim community. We
are calling him that. Tell me what you felt during
(30:42):
that exchange with President Trump.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, I mean it was really you know, in my mind,
giving just the opportunity to give some context for why
that language was important for us, because you know, by default,
you know, by definition, if you were seeking to cause
fear and intimidation amongst a wider group of individuals through
your act, that's a terrorist act. And so it was
(31:06):
very you know, we were clear eyed on that. But
we were also clear eyed on the fact that we
were not going to use his name. You know, if
he was seeking in for me, and he was, he
was part of a community of individuals who liked to
see the repetition of their names and their attacks, well
we could deny him that. And for me, empathetic leadership,
people centered leadership, it is nothing without action. The idea
(31:27):
that you're simply emoting is not enough. So there were
two things that came from this horrific experience. One was
the weapons that he used on that day to R fifteens,
in particular, alongside other military style semi automatic weapons. He
legally obtained them and then illegally modified them. But regardless,
(31:49):
these were weapons designed to take lives on mass and
they did that. I remember visiting the hospitals and just
coming away and seeing individuals who didn't have one gunshot,
where they had multiple wounds, you know, devastating wounds and
in such a short amount of time. And so we
were clear that our law needed to change, and so
we changed it. All members of parliament bar one, voted
(32:12):
in favor of a ban of military styles semi automatic
weapons within twenty seven days of the attack. And the
second thing we did. He used social media Facebook then
specifically to live stream his attack and it was broadcast
for seventeen minutes. It was uploaded once every second on
YouTube for the first twenty four hours, and one point
(32:34):
five million copies were removed from Facebook because, as I say,
his intention was to intimidate, to motivate others to violence,
to create this warfare, and that was one of his
tools was social media. So we created something that called
the Cross, which called to action, bringing together governments, platforms,
and civil society, first of its kind arrangement to try
(32:59):
and tackle rad vitalization and violent extremism online. And it's
still going to this day. I'm now the patron. A
number of things have changed as a consequence, but anyone
listening will know that work continues and it is one
of the I think great challenges we face.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You must look at this country and we've had so
many incidents of horrific gun violence at synagogues and schools
and places of worship and shopping centers and movie theaters.
I mean, I could go on and on, and yet
with some small changes during the Biden administration, it seems
(33:34):
that we have not been able to muster the collective
will to do anything about it, to make guns less available.
I mean, the right to bear arms the sort of
sacrosanct in this country. And I you know, watching as
a New Zealander, Jacinda, and now someone who lives in America,
I mean, do you have a difficult time understanding why
(33:57):
we haven't been able to do something. There's so many
people who want it done, and yet it never happens.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, And you know, I'm always careful commenting on other
people's politics and policies because it's sometimes just cultural differences
and perspectives that I just won't fully understand. But we
do have high levels of gun ownership in New Zealand.
But I think probably it's always been seen as you know,
(34:26):
whilst access was important, particularly as food producers and farmers
and hunters recreationally, it is still framed as a responsibility
versus a right. And I also think that we're pretty
pragmatic in New Zealand, and I think that when it
came down to it, accessing guns was one thing, the
type of guns was another. You know, I kind of
(34:46):
really challenged anyone to mount an argument for me as
to why they needed an AAR fifteen. If you're a
duck shooter, you do not need an AR fifteen. You're
a hunter pest management. So, you know, New Zealand is
I think a really pragmatic approach, and so we did
not take that law from nowhere that came out of Australia.
(35:07):
They had a horrific attack in Port Arthur and the
then Conservative Prime Minister by the name of John Howard
instituted a ban on these same weapons, but also at
the same time a buyback, and I really believed that
was the right approach. You know, at the time that
people had acquired them, they'd done so legally, and so
therefore we should compensate them. And so we paid, depending
(35:29):
on the state of the gun eighty percent of market value.
People had that money into their accounts and then we
destroyed them and for us it was over fifty thousand weapons.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
After the mask attack, then comes the pandemic. I'm like, wow,
your timing really sucks.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Just it does. It was actually a volcanic eruption in
between as well. Sorry, it was a real time. It
was for New Zealanders, you know, I remember.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I remember, sorry I mentioned the volcanic corruption and several
many people died. You were not able to evacuate that island, right.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Well, I mean they did evacuate individuals, but those who
remained very sadly had perished, and then we had to
undertake a body recovery. It was a horrific, horrific time. Again,
So yeah, New Zealand really went through a lot for
a few years there.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And then, like the rest of the world, you go
through the pandemic, and your handling of this crisis was
heralded as a model of effective leadership and I think
contributed to your landslide Re election in twenty twenty. But
as time went on, God, oh hard, yeah, I mean impossible.
(36:37):
There was such a backlash. In early twenty twenty two,
the grounds of Parliament in Wellington became the epicenter of
a sprawling and volatile protest. I remember in the documentary
someone says, this is not like Kiwi's yeah, the nickname
for New Zealanders. Where was this coming from and why?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And I think about that read a lot, because the
context of when we had that occupation in Parliament was
six days after the Canadian blockade started, yes the convoy.
So there was some conversation around the knock on effective
of that, because in the New Zealand context, we weren't
using things like lockdowns anymore. We had reopened our borders,
(37:22):
we were back into normal life. We were having our
first real experience of COVID with omicron, but we were
doing so with a vaccination raid around ninety percent. So
and then this happened, and of course the frame for
those who came was vaxing mandates we had required people
who were working in healthcare, education, around our borders and
(37:45):
in the police force at their request to be vaccinated.
And so I think it is important to look at
not only what the stated reason for that protest was,
but also what my sat underneath, because there's something universal
about that latter part of the COVID experience for a
(38:06):
lot of countries, not just US, a lot of countries.
And you know, it was occurring in a time of
I think, deep anger over the experience of the pandemic.
It was so hard, but also a lot of disinformation,
a lot of stuff swhirling from around different countries. We
saw some of the conspiracies that exist in the world
(38:27):
were on placards and signs down on our fore court,
you know, the odd American flag and so on. So
I think that there is a debate to be had
beyond geographic boundaries over what do we do about disinformation
as well as looking at just our pandemic responses. Generally,
(38:47):
we need to learn from the mouse wasn't a perfect response.
It saved and estimated twenty thousand lives. We spent less
time in lockdowns than you know, most countries. Our lives
for large periods was relatively normal, but it still had
an impact. It was still hard, and we need to
learn from that experience in retrospect.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Would you have done anything differently?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, I've always thought that, you know, because you have
in your mind the context in which you were making
all those decisions, that imperfect information. It's really hard to say, well,
I would have done that. But that doesn't mean you
shouldn't ask the question. We put in place a royal commission,
that's the most independent form of inquiry you can have
(39:31):
in New Zealand, and we put ex boots on there.
So please God tell us, you tell us objectively. And
so they did, and they came back with a range
of recommendations, and I don't disagree with any of them,
but we have to be willing to learn because this won't,
sadly be an isolated experience. I hope never again in
my lifetime, but we have to be prepared.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
The ugliness of some of those protesters was so upsetting
to me. The placards and the threats against you, and
just the meanness totally antithetical to what you're trying to
promote in this book and in your style of leadership.
And you described one moment in an airport bathroom when
a woman came up to you and said, thank you
(40:14):
for running our country. Yes, it is hard, and I'm
assuming you just didn't take these things personally.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, I mean even I mean, gosh, it's you know,
I remember, of course the occupation was terribly difficult.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And then the kind of aftermath, Jacinda, where you had
almost your own kind of January six where the police.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Well that was itself, the occupation, and mean, one thing
I kept in mind. Of course it wasn't everyone. Of
course it wasn't everyone, you know, and relative to our
population size, you know, it was a small portion, but
you know, it was nonetheless very confronting. But even then
I would look out over that crowd some days and
(40:55):
think everything we'd done was about trying to safe bull's
lives and protect people. But they think that's what they're doing.
Some people believe the vaccine killed people, you know, and
so they thought they were trying to save lives. And
so you could almost even in those two completely different positions,
(41:16):
see that, you know, if half of what they were
reading was true, you know, I might feel that angry
as well. But it's those two things. The fact that
we sometimes now can't even agree on facts. That's extremely
disruptive for democracies. And then the second people's willingness to
tip into violence is also I believe in this. The
(41:38):
research suggests increasing people thinks violence is justified now as
a political act. Those are two very challenging situations that
I do think need to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
So what do we do about it?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
While I do two things, I don't think we should
feel hopeless or a sense that there isn't work being
done in community to try and bridge those divides. People
talk about it as polarization. I see it more as entrenchment,
a depth of feeling that is intransigent. But I've certainly
come across groups that are working hard in their own
(42:11):
communities to try and restore the respectful debate in that dialogue.
The second thing is we do need to raise a
generation who are not cynical, but curious, who question what
they see, who ask questions, who seek alternative sources, to
really try and differentiate between the disinformation that they will
(42:31):
increasingly be exposed to op media literacy. Indeed, but I
do think we also need to hold accountable those who
are publishers, not postmen and at the moment, we have
a lot of platforms online who don't see themselves as
responsible for that information environment. I believe in a free
and open internet. I believe in freedom of speech, but
(42:54):
things like disinformation, this is something else that we have
to be willing to debate and talk about.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
You announced your resignation in January twenty twenty three, saying
you no longer felt you had enough in the tank
to do the job. Justice take us inside that moment.
I know this was a very hard decision for you.
It was talk about what kind of put you over
the edge. I mean, there were a few things leading
up to it. I know that you had a little
(43:22):
bit of a breast cancer scare. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe
that's oversteating it.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, I think it's It's interesting. I put it in
the in the book and someone asked me why didn't
you talk about this earlier? And I said, because it
wasn't the reason I left, and nor was it you know,
so significant or you know, women have that kind of
thing happened all the time. I didn't want to overstate it.
But what it did do is suddenly give me a
(43:47):
frame to think about you know, why, why when my
GP said, you need to go and have further testing.
Why was the first thing that came into my head
Maybe if this ends up being cancer, maybe I could leave.
And as soon as it hit hit, you know, came
into my mind, I thought, that is a very dark
(44:10):
that is a very dark way to think about this
new information. And it made me realize that I had
not entertained the idea because I felt such a sense
of responsibility to be there and that the only thing
that was going to take me out of it was
if I thought the choice was being removed. So that's
the reason that moment was important, because something I thought,
maybe I need to think about this a bit more.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
And then what was the thing that was there? One
thing or was just a culmination of things?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
There wasn't one thing, you know, and some people talk about,
you know, the aftermath of COVID. I left twelve months after,
you know, we'd continued on with life. There was nothing
politically particularly going on. Polling wise, we were you know,
a few points shy of where we were when I
was elected. There was nothing particularly dramatic, and I wanted
it that way because I think it's okay to leave
(45:01):
without scandal or death. Or loss. But actually just because
you know that you're not able to continue to be
the type of letter that you need to be in
that job, sometimes there's a responsibility to leave.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Why do you think so many politicians have difficulty doing that?
You know, so many people stay too long at the fair.
They don't want to give up the power, the prestige,
whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Too long at the fair. I love that turn and phrase.
It makes it sound like it's a really good time.
Too long at the gauntletness. You know, I understand how
it happens because obviously your team that surround you, they're
really supportive, they really encourage you, and sometimes you can
end up feeling like, you know, you'll be leaving people
(45:49):
adrift if you go. And also it's a lonely decision.
You can't talk too many about it because if it
gets out there you're thinking of leaving, that can be
in itself that can make the decision for you. And
so I totally understand how it happens. And I hadn't wils.
I really hadn't thought about it. You know, maybe maybe
(46:09):
by leaving it gave a little permission for people to
think differently about departure. I don't know. I don't know.
All I know is no one really particularly supported me
to leave, and so I had to do it in
spite of the views of others. And so I can
see how that happens for politicians.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, the pressure and depreciative. So people whose livelihood depends
on your staam put me and invertently kind of pressure
you to stay because they're thinking a lot about themselves, understandably.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
And you know, for me, it was, you know, we
were one year out from another election, and I believed,
you know that we had so much more work to
do on climate change, housing, chop poverty, things that really
mattered to me. So winning mattered to me because that
was the only way to keep making a difference on
those things. But it didn't I mean, I personally needed
(47:01):
to win. And there was a part of me that thought,
when you governed through COVID, you bring baggage, you do.
It's just it's the privilege and the price of the job.
I ended up having to make decisions I knew were unpopular.
I knew they were unpopular and that I'd pay a
price for them, but they still I thought of people
survived this pandemic because of it. Then that's worth it.
(47:22):
But it didn't mean that. I saw myself as a
bit of a flashpoint for some people, And if leaving
could bring the temperature down in politics, that would be
worth it too. That would be worth it too.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to katiecurrec dot com. It's
(48:02):
hard to imagine just send a politician more diametrically opposed
to your style of governing and your desire to lead
with compassion and kindness than the current President of the
United States, Donald Trump. And as a former world leader,
I'm curious what it's been like for you, especially now
(48:26):
that you're at Harvard, which is in the crosshairs. What
has it been like for you witnessing his behavior both
in this country and his efforts to remake the global
order in such a profound way.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
As the previous leader of a small country who's long
being affected by the engagement of others in multilateralism or
an international rules based order, you know, it matters to
me deeply whether or not we have a grave departure
of that sense of collective responsibility. When I think about
(49:05):
some of the significant challenges that we face. Pandemics don't
respect borders, neither disclimate change, and you know, our economic exposure. Generally,
we are so connected now, and the idea that we
can govern in a way that ignores that successfully, I
don't believe that to be true. I don't believe that
(49:26):
to be true because of how connected now we are.
But that's a view ol shee universally, regardless of who's
in power or what country I'm speaking to, you have to,
of course, as a politician, satisfy the domestic needs of
the people who elected you to serve them. But I
believe you're best able to do that whilst acknowledging the
connection that we have with others. The second thing for me,
(49:48):
though I never really saw myself on departure, is going
into the leadership space. I thought there's plenty of people
who are well seized in the practice of leadership, talk
about what's needed and the practice of leadership itself. But
because there was so much conversation around different forms in politics,
I was convinced to start a fellowship on empathetic leadership
(50:12):
and it has been one of the most satisfying things
I've been involved with since I left, because there are
there are politicians out there who are doing things differently,
but you won't see them in headlines. You won't see
them always in lights, even though they are often quite senior.
Because our system we gravitate towards reading and seeing and
(50:33):
experiencing and feeling the rage of the extremes. I want
to spotlight the alternative because it is there, and I
think it needs to be acknowledged and given half a chance,
I think voters will seek to reward it as well.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
There are many people who are very disheartened and disturbed
and concerned about what's happening yeah in the United States
right now, about democratic norms being ignored or democracy even
being dismantled. And I would love to ask you what
(51:09):
so many people ask me, what can we do? I
know you're a New Zealander, but you do live in
America and you do care about democracy and democratic principles,
and I think people are feeling so powerless and at
such a loss. I feel that way. Honestly. I'm trying
(51:33):
to help explain what's happening to people. That's where I
think I can be of service. But for people watching this,
what would you say to them? How can you give
them hope? Because I know that you say you're still optimistic,
and you're saying optimism is not naive, it's hope. And
you've quoted Lord Shackleton's well saying optimism is moral courage.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
It is.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
But I have to be honest. It's hard to be
optimistic right now.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
And I completely understand that. But my fear is that
without optimism, you know, without that expectation, because that's how
I see optimism. Optimism is an expectation that things can
and should be better, and there's a moment that we
lose that expectation, we run the risk of drifting into
a difference. And we can't afford that either, you know,
(52:22):
in terms of you know, messages, And again I am
an observerst I'm always careful to give these commentaries. But
what I'm suggesting is possible is within your own history.
And when you think about the tumultuous times that we've
gone through as global communities, you know, Great Depression, World
(52:43):
War Two, significant moments in time, and then you know,
predating that, of course, a horrific pandemic in influenza that
took out the same number of people. There's casualties in
those wars. We've had very extreme and tumultuous times as
humans before and during that time, you had a president
(53:04):
that many described as an empathetic leader in FDR who,
during great complexity of the Great Depression, where perhaps it
would have been easier just to resort to blame and fear,
would engage in fireside chats explaining to the American public
not only what was going on and you know, the
economic wins, but what the response would be. These aren't
(53:27):
These aren't lofty ideals that have never been implemented before.
There is examples of it in America's own history. As
long as people maintain an expectation of what they expect
in leadership.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
What are you most excited about when it comes to
your future. I know that you'll stay in Boston for
a while, How long do you think, Oh.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
We're looking for you know, always looking at what the
next adventure will be. We're not going to be away
from New Zealand forever. It's home. So we've always called
this little adventure and the first one was meant to
be three months it's just happens turned into two years.
But New Zealand is still home.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
As someone who's at Harvard, I mean, Harvard is under
incredible pressure, as I mentioned, in the crosshairs of the
Trump administration. What do you think about Harvard's pushback and
refusal to acquiesce to some of the things that the
administration is asking for and in fact suing the Trump administration?
(54:27):
And what is it like being at Harvard right now?
So I'm obviously not at the center. I'm not a
member of faculty. I mean, I know you're not.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Indeed, I think that's an important point to make. I'm
merely there as a fellow and undeniably obviously there's there's,
you know, a tense environment in this moment and time.
All I can reflect on is, you know, my own
time and leadership and politics back in New Zealand. You know,
we there was separation between government and higher education. We've
(55:00):
seen higher education as we call it a New Zealand
or tertiary education has almost been There's always a conscience,
you know, it's always there as a commentary on where
we are and society and politics, history, you know, our
place in the world for us certainly in New Zealand,
And I've always valued the clear separation between politics and
their ability to govern, manage and preside over that role
(55:27):
as a conscience. So that's my perspective from a New
Zealand governance perspective.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Here here's some questions from my followers. Just send it.
Will you ever come back to public service? I still,
in a way feel like I'm in some kind of
public service. I'm not campaigning for myself, but I'm campaigning
for humanity. What is your favorite girl Scout cookie?
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Oh? No, that has a story because in New Zealand
we have two types, plain and chocolate covered. And when
I discovered there's this whole range it is, it has
become a bit of a thing for me.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
So what is your favorite?
Speaker 2 (56:03):
Oh? I'm a great lover of the Caramel Deluge, and
I can say and caramel. I say this having tried
about I ordered a box from my local chapter. And
when I say a box, I mean a can of
like six different flavors, and the Caramel Delight is delicious.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Well, I'm a thin ment girl in the freezer, yes,
and the freezer, but I always eat the whole sleeve
and it's a real problem for that delicious? Okay, how
can we get America to elect a woman president?
Speaker 2 (56:33):
I you know, Gosh, I'm just gonna say this. It
will happen in my lifetime. I believe it, really, Yeah,
I do.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
I hope it happens in my lifetime too. Just said,
I'm a little older than you are.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
And I say that as someone who does not much
for my longevity. So that's my optimism.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, maybe fewer caramel delights would be helpful. What is
your favorite professional book or podcast?
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Oh? Do I expose my listening interests. Probably the podcast
that I have listened to the most over the years
is called Criminal. I love it. I love it. Phebe
Judge amazing, amazing podcast or amazing interviewer, such a calming voice,
so I've listened to it for years. I love it.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Any books that you have really loved that meet an
impression on you.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
I recently read Melinda French Gates book The Next Time Transitions. Yeah,
it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book. Beautiful. And I also
recently listened to the audiobook of The Beasting. It's such
an incredible Irish storytelling. There's something so strong about Irish
writers and so the beasting. I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Well, it's been such a thrill, as I said, to
meet you and talk to you, and congratulations on your book.
It is like giving birth. I can attest to that
a different kind of power. Just send to ardur and
how your official title is the Honorable Dean? What do
I have? What is your beav side?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
I go to tell you because I tell me I
prefer people not to use it. Think do you want
me to say it is problematic for me? Officially? It
would be the right Honorable Dame. Just sender it's too much.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
It's too much today, I'll just say just send me
thank you. I prefer thank you so much, Thank you.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
(58:35):
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(58:59):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's
(59:22):
Katie Curic. You know I'm always on the go between
running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course
covering the news, And I know that to keep doing
what I love, I need to start caring for what
gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to
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Jasenda Ardurn. Your official title is the honorable Dame. What
do I have?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What is your I go to tell you because I
prefer people not to use it. Think you want me
to say it is problematic for me officially, it would
be the right Honorable Dame to cenda it's too much.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It's too much, I'll say, I'll just say just send it,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I prefer.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric, And this is next question.
Authoritarianism is on the rise, democratic norms are frame and
my guest today says, it sometimes feels like the world
is one big dumpster fire. But Dane Jersenda ar Dern,
(00:53):
the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, offers a different
kind of power, one rooted and compassionate and kindness. Now
a fellow at Harvard, she's reflecting on her leadership in
a new memoir called a Different Kind of Power, as
well as the upcoming documentary Prime Minister, which is out
on June thirteenth. What is it like to lead through crisis,
(01:17):
become a mother in office? And why is stepping away
from power sometimes a symbol of strength and not weakness?
And in a time of extreme disillusionment, she reminds us
that optimism isn't naive. In fact, it's necessary. First of all,
I'm so thrilled to meet you. I've been such an
(01:39):
admirer of yours for many years, so I can't believe
I'm finally getting a chance to sit down and talk
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. So
thank you for having me and on this special day.
Books finally out in the world after two years.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I know, do you feel like you had another baby?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Someone at the very beginning described to the process of
book writing in that way. It's you know, it's terrible.
You go through this journey and you're swearing this out
yourself that you will never do it again, and then
it arrives and you're so overwhelmed and excited and happy
that you forget and you do it again.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So are you saying there's another one in you?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
No? No, I've a number of times swore off it
as I was. As I was going through the process,
someone once told me never say never, though, But I
certainly don't have plans for another other than the children's book,
which is out at the end of September.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh wow, So yeah, you do have another.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It's a very different experience writing a children's definitely very
done both.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I should say writing a children's book is a lot
more fun.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
It's a lot more fun. It's simple and joyful, is
how I describe it. Whereas this was therapy with a deadline.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm sure, and I'm so glad you wrote it. I
think we all need a different kind of power now
more than ever. So what is this different kind of
power of which you speak?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's I think, on the face of it, people will think, oh, okay,
so it's just talking about different types of leadership, And
to a certain extent that's true. I mean, one of
the things I wanted to share was what I believe
to be the strengths of compassionate and empathetic leadership, and
to also counter some of the assumptions that we have
(03:21):
about those forms of leadership, especially in politics. Thus so
often equated with weakness or indecision or lack of resilience,
and therefore as though you cannot succeed or thrive in
politics if that's the leadership style that you subscribe to.
So I wanted to push back against that notion, but
(03:42):
I also wanted to share the strength that sits behind
so many of those things that we often characterize as.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Weakness or a female.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Or female that is often true, but without actually you know,
I've met a number of people who had say have
the same experience, is so imposter syndrome or empathy. We
see weaknesses with those traits. I wanted to talk about
the strength of those the power of some of those traits.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And have you met men with those traits?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I have. I have worked with them. I have worked
with them. I don't think that my colleague will mind
me saying this, but I talk a bit about our
finance minister who went on to become our deputy Prime Minister.
He was someone with extraordinary empathy during COVID. I remember
him coming up to my office and just being distraught
(04:36):
because he'd read a number of letters that morning that
had come in from business owners who were struggling to
see how they would survive during COVID, and he was
so personally moved by every story, was recounting to me
what he'd read on the page, and you know, was
working through you know, would ex policy make a difference
for that person or did we need to tweak why policy?
(05:00):
I was someone who was guided so much by compassion,
So yes, I do see it in others, but there's
not always the incentive in our system to spotlight that.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
It seems to me and I'm sure to many many
people in this country and in fact globally, just send it.
And I know you tell people to call you to
send us, so I'm going to do that. But this
kind of power seems is I would say to send it,
not as send it and the world does feel like
a dumpster fire. Yeah, strongman Rain here and abroad. Did
(05:35):
you feel there was a real urgency to write this
book now, given what we're witnessing on a worldwide and
certainly in this country.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I started writing after I left office, and she was
a bit of a journey because I left the New
Zealand Parliament in April twenty twenty three, and after I'd
announced that I was standing down. You know, I got
the question about a book, and I was quite vehement
that I wouldn't do it, you know, in part because
I think rightly or wrongly, political memoir is solved and
(06:06):
framed as being your opportunity to put your view on
what happened in your own words, and whether you intend
for it to be or not I think that's naturally
framed has been PEPs defensive or you know, trying to
correct your critics. I didn't really feel like I wanted
to do that or needed to do that. Feel it,
(06:27):
history's just going to tell your story, no matter what
or how you influence it. And then someone started, you know,
a friend really asked whether or not that had to
be the kind of memoir that I wrote. And I
really thought about that, you know, this idea of instead
using it as an opportunity to humanize leadership and speak
to not just prospective politicians but people who might self
(06:51):
exclude because they have doubts about their own leadership style.
And I thought that's a book that I would feel
motivated to write. And I felt that two years ago.
You know, that was at a time when even then,
you know, when things have changed a lot since then,
even then, you didn't see much of a spotlight on
alternative forms of leadership. But I still felt that was
(07:14):
what voters were looking for. I felt that's what people
were looking for, and I still feel that now. I
think there's a disconnect between the leadership that we see
and what people are seeking, and we've unfortunately, I think,
interpreted that just because we have a certain type of
leadership and power in different parts of the world, that
that's indicative of where everyone is at. And I don't
(07:35):
believe that to be true.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
But what do you think is causing that disconnect? You know?
I just let me read this from a recent Washington
Post article. A conservative nationalist backed by President Donald Trump
was elected to Pauland's presidency over the weekend, capping a
string of tightly fought contests that analysts say underscore the
growing strength of far raid and populist parties in Europe,
(07:58):
fueled in part by the end influence of the mag
of movement from across the pond. They're talking about the
new president of paul And, a gentleman named Carol Naaki.
I guess is how you pronounce his name? But it
seems as if these strong men are gaining power all
over the world, and we're seeing this trend toward autocracies,
(08:20):
and yet you believe that's not what people want. Then
I guess the question is why is it happening?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Then? So I think if we dig a little bit
deeper into this question of if we're seeing there's two
things at play. There's the issues itself that people are facing,
and then there's the way that politicians are then choosing
to respond to that. The issues are real. I think
we have deep financial insecurity, We have a sense of
(08:46):
disruption to our lives and the aftermath of COVID that's
deeply unsettling. Everything we thought you could rely on has
been completely disrupted in our worlds, regardless of where you're from.
But also that old notion and politics of every generation
perhaps been better off than the last. I don't think
people believe that to be true anymore, and that is disruptive.
(09:09):
Nor in this rapid technological disruption, do I think people
think that their livelihoods are secure. So and amongst all of.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That fear your immigration, by the way.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And so in amongst all of that fear and insecurity,
there's a lot of power in the way politicians then
articulate or try and make sense of that to a voter,
or manipulate it, weaponize, is what I would say. You know,
you have two choices. When you're a politician and you've
got a situation where people are fearful, you can weaponize
(09:39):
it and use blame. As we often see and we
sing in large parts of the world, blame of migrants,
blame of others, those who are causing your financial insecurity,
or the alternative is that you actually answer the problem
sitting in front of you. Because there are very genuine
issues that politicians should be tackling, but they won't be
tackled with a SoundBite. They will take work, you know,
(10:02):
thoughtful policy. I think collective multilateralism there is still a
place for that, because you cannot geographically isolate yourself from
the impacts of disease from climate and nor can you
only ever hit your competitive with trade barriers. So that
is the complexity of the world that we operate in.
And I think, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But I feel like people just having covered this for
so long, Yeah, I feel that people aren't necessarily receptive.
I mean, I'm making this massive generalization to complexities and
they want simple answers. And because they're fearful, that moves
into anger. Because people are angry, that moves into being
(10:47):
susceptible to that kind of weaponization. So how do we
meet people more receptive to an approach of problem solving
but also not other rising aren't blame, you know, I mean,
I think that is the existential question. Of our time.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I mean, the wider politicians reach for those easy, simple
messages because they're easy and simple, they can reach people
they were and they can really grab you. But the
long term consequence of that is actually dire for our
society and our communities, and it actually doesn't solve the problems.
So whether or not this is a long term political solution,
(11:27):
that's a real question, because as soon as people see
actually their lives aren't better or aren't different, then they
go hunting again. This is really interesting to me if
you dig into the research from the last European elections,
they looked at people who switched their voters to far
right parties and found that roughly only a quarter were
doing so because they believed in the ideology. Others felt
(11:48):
disenfranchised or felt that their system was broken, or there
was a singular policy that might have attracted them to that.
But that sends a message that actually, at the moment,
there is this disquiet and people are looking around, casting
around for the answers. And in Canada and in Australia
they elected two prime ministers who on election night chose
(12:11):
to use their victory speeches to talk about kindness, and
those were two individuals who were successfully elected by their people.
I do think that there are a number of voters
seeking an alternative, and particularly when we work really hard
on delivering the answers and solutions people are looking for,
that will make a difference.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on
the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,
and of course covering the news. And I know that
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caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why
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(12:58):
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Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,
(13:18):
or book your own free personalized fitting. Your book is
an opportunity to tell your whole story and about your childhood.
You grew up in Morinsville, is that my correctly New Zealand.
(13:39):
It's a rural dairy farming community. It's about two hours
south of Auckland. Your dad was a police officer, Your
mom worked in your school's cafeteria, and you and your
sister Louise were the first in your family to go
to college. Right, What was it as a kid that
lit the spark in you? Or was it at ember
(14:00):
it's slowly intensified over time. When did you decide I'm
going to be a leader? I didn't, and it's a
kind of decided, yeah, what you would be? Right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
It's a great question because we have this assumption that
in politics, because it's such a cut and thrust place,
that you must enjoy the sport of it yourself, and
that in itself must be quite enticing. Whereas actually a
lot of the politicians I've met, they're there in spite
of the politics, are there because you know, they saw
something in the community that they wanted to change, or
something about you know, policy or law that they felt
(14:31):
was unfair. There'll be something that motivated them. For me,
it was, you know, even at the time, if I
wouldn't have articulated this way, I just, you know, when
I observed things that didn't feel fair, you know, consident
have some of the basic things that I had. That
early experience I think probably just sparked a bit of
a desire to be a part of making change, and
(14:55):
also I was raising a very service orientated household, and
politics to me, you know, when done right, is an
active service. So if you wanted to be a part
of making change, the best way to do it was
to go and volunteer for a political party, and I
did that. I didn't believe that I would end up
front of house as it were.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Right, you thought you'd be behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, and I thought I was reasonably well suited to that,
even though actually sometimes even then I struggled with the
intensity of the roles. But circumstance, random set of events
being asked often enough, all culminated and me finding myself
in Parliament. But from there, the mental of leadership was
not only something I wouldn't seek, something I actively told
(15:37):
people I did not want.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
And yet things changed really because of circumstances. But before
we talk about how you became an unlikely prime minister,
you were almost crippled by anxiety and impostor syndrome and
feeling that you weren't enough. And I wonder how through
the years, because so many particularly women, I think, feel
(16:01):
that way, perhaps from cultural conditioning or societal norms, but
how were you able to ultimately compensate for that or
do you still feel like it past her still? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I know.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I see this story because it actually, you know, it's
quite comforting. But one of the female pro miniss I
had the privilege of working for was someone called Helen Clark.
She was incredible, She lived New Zealand for nine years
and after she left office someone content I was. She
just always came across to me so self assured. And
she tells the story of someone calling her to suggest
(16:36):
to her that she might consider becoming the head of
the UN Development Program. And I was sitting in an
auditorium when she said she gave her response. She said
to them, oh, I'm not sure that I have enough
experience and aid and development And they said to her
down the phone, but Helen, you ran a country. And
so as soon as I heard that, I thought, oh,
so it's not just me who immediately moves to that,
(17:00):
you know, deficit approach of all of the reasons you
can't do something. Can I know I'm not alone in that?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
No, And men always think they're overqualified, which is so serious,
and women, if they look at themselves, they say the
same thing. I couldn't do that. I'm not qualified.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, well, I mean that didn't really change for me,
but the way I see that trait has changed. And
you know, I use the word anxious. I always just
describe myself as a bit of a warrior. You know.
I'm the kind of person that if there's risk on
the horizon, I'll immediately start planning for the strategies to
manage that risk. You know, actually that's probably quite helpful
(17:37):
when you're in a leadership role. You know, when you
have a confidence gap, you just instinctively over prepare. You
want to know more about the issues so that you're
ready to make decisions, and you'll bring in other people
to help with advice and expert knowledge. That's also quite
helpful when you're a leader. So I stopped seeing these
things as weaknesses so long as you're able to keep
(18:00):
them in check, because I know for many those feelings
can be crippling, and that's where our counsel that's not beneficial.
But if you are able to see the strengths, then
maybe that is.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But you became Prime Minister when you were what thirty
seventies old, which is insane, and you became prime minister
when you realize you were pregnant, right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well, this is the I guess the real contrast. Everyone
saw me as a young prime minister, but as an
expectant mother I was The medical term was geriatric, So
I had one of those Yeah, so common. Why don't they.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Share theatric pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
We should start the campaign here. I'm pro seasoned mother.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
But I mean I watched a documentary that's coming out soon,
and you talk about this in your book, but I
was in awe of your ability to manage everything. I mean,
I think your husband, Clerk serves a tremendous amount of
critic absolutely holding down the flour and parenting up babysitting.
(19:04):
Some father still describe it, but I do think, wow,
that was intense.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It was, and I think this is one of the
things that I'm so grateful that the documentary captures in
a way that I tried to do in the book.
But it just gives you that extra.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Layer and the visual, visual intimacy of very powerful Well
that that was Clark picking up a camera and filming
behind the scenes, just because for no other reason than
he just thought, maybe this is this will be important,
Maybe this will be you know, a moment in.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
History of swords. But what I'm really pleased he captured is,
you know, in amongst that notion which probably invariably happens
when there are so few people who have done a
thing like unfortunately I was only the second woman in
the world to have a baby whobbing an office. The
Buddho was the and so you can I think sometimes
(20:03):
feed that notion that women can do it all. And
I wanted to demonstrate, yes, women can, but they shouldn't
do it alone. And so I think the documentary shows
I was never alone, right, I was very well supported.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I know you were worried about framing it as you
were a superwoman and that look, you know I can
run a country and raise a daughter.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, we should never lift the bar that high, that
expectations too much for anyone. In fact, you know, I
remember one of the things of the experience of becoming
a mother. I would talk to my friend about this
all the time. How do women do this on their own?
How do they do it on their own? Those were
the heroes. If I was ever going to talk about superwomen,
(20:43):
it would be that group of women. And I started
thinking about it in policy terms, what are our policies
doing to support those parents, and of course not all
of them, exclusively women, those parents who are doing this
job on their own. I want to do more to support.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Your daughter, Neive. I thought it was very funny when
your mom was of like, Nive, that's an interesting name.
What were some of the other choices which made me translation,
I'm not crazy about that my name.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
My mom is the most gorgeous human being. You could
not ask for a more supportive mother, you know, just amazing.
And there's something so universal about that moment. Now she's
been right. You know, I love the name. I love
the name.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
It made me laugh though.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, she's you know, she's always had the ability though,
because of course with a parent, you're always thinking about
the wellbeing of your child. And I still remember the
morning after one of our elections where we'd lost but
I was still in Parliament, but I was in the
back bed, you know, I was in the opposition again,
and it was such a hard place to be, so dispiriting.
Morning after her coming into my room and sitting on
(21:47):
the end of my bed and just saying, you still
really want to do this? So, Mom, I just got
elected yesterday. It's a three year contract. But she's just yeah,
always just been so.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So I know that that fall of twenty eighteen, after
Neve was born, there was a photo of you holding
her well seated on the floor of the UN General Assembly.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Tybal photos so terrible. Why, oh well, you can see
that we have I was trying to explain this to someone.
You can see that we don't know this sum If
you look at the full spray, you can see I'm
craning my neck around because all I could hear. This
was not a full room, this was not the General
Assembly in session. It was a special event for Nelson Mandela.
(22:29):
And I'd just gone up and spoken and we hadn't
planned for Clark and need to come over, but she'd
woken up from her net, so he bought her over
and there was lots of space, so they sat down
on the floor when I came off from speaking, and
I'm holding her, making stupid phases, you know, just doing
their thing. And I just see and you can't see
the media up in the UN General Assembly that all
(22:52):
behind closed mirrored kind of rooms and an overhang. And
I sit to our ambassador at the UN. I said,
what's it?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Noise?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
He said, Oh, the media are sit in those rooms.
Oh do they there? I am back at least making
these awful faces. And so that's that moment that apparently
was historic, was just just a very regular, spontaneous moment
for us as a family.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
But I think it became but it became very symbolic
I think of women's potential again, wanting to issue this
whole super woman moniker. It did, I think help normalize
the fact that leaders could be mothers, yeah, and that
(23:40):
women could both have children and lead a country.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But that it will always continue to be It won't
always be leney, and it won't always be easy. And
that was there was also something that the book gave
me a chance to share behind the scenes because in
amongst us, you know, historic photo, I was really struggling
with managing different time zones. Breastfeeding never came easy for me,
(24:10):
and so there's this extra layer that was always going on,
and in that extra layer is something very universal. There's
a story for so many women, and I wanted to
share that as well, not for pity or compassion, but
actually just to say it doesn't matter where your station is,
or your role or what you're doing, the experience of
(24:32):
parenting as a great leveler, and maybe that will help
humanize people in public life a little bit as well,
because we could probably do with a bit of humanization
of one another.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Perhaps the story behind the photo. Yeah, you know, I
think about the period of time just sender when you
were the Prime Minister and good lord. Yeah, it was
just one crisis after another. I think you truly burst
onto the world world stage six months later in March
(25:03):
of twenty nineteen, when a far right Australian man killed
fifty one worshipers at that mask in christ Church, live
streaming the attack on Facebook. Tell me about the moment
you heard this was happening, and how you were able
to summon the strength and the leadership that were so
(25:25):
required at that moment.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, and I remember that day so well. And of course,
you know, when you're first presented with information, you know,
you get it in bits. And so I was on
my way, I was in a van with a local mayor,
on my way to visit a school when my pre
secretary handed me the phone and just said, you know,
there's a there's been a shooting. And over the course
(25:51):
of quite a short period of time, I learned that
a mosque was involved, and they weren't sure whether or
not it was a series of attacks coordinated it was,
but just that information gave a really early insight as
to perhaps what this might be. And it wasn't too
much later that we heard that he had prepared a manifesto,
(26:13):
a manifesto just full of hate, and he'd sent it
to my office, learning that he had deliberately targeted people
during Friday prayers in order to maximize the number of casualties.
But not only that he'd done it because he had
an intention to try and create a war. He wanted
(26:35):
there to be retaliatory acts. That was part of his plan,
and also part of his plan was to become infamous himself.
And so New Zealand has just rejected that. You know,
as much as people may comment on the role that
I had to play as Prime Minister, in many ways,
I simply saw myself as leading out what was a
(26:56):
very New Zealand response, which was a complete rejection of
what he had tried to do. You know, an entire
nation who were gripped and united by grief, and a
Muslim community who showed such enormous grace towards New Zealanders
in that moment, opened mosques, opened their arms, allowed us
(27:19):
to join with them in that period of grief. It
will ever be one of the most deeply moving and
sad experiences I've had in my life. But I feel
so humble to have been in that role during that
period as well.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
In a press conference after the attack, you said, quote,
many of the people affected by this extreme violence will
be from refugee and migrant communities. New Zealand is their home.
They are us, and I think that freeze us echoed
around the world and did come to symbolize a different
kind of leadership, particularly during a period when immigrants were
(27:58):
being so dem eyes. Do you know one of the.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Things that I absolutely, I mean so much during this
period of events just crushed all of us. But learning
that two of the victims, one was a father from
Syria who had brought his family to New Zealand, well really,
(28:25):
I mean bought implies some kind of choice, but had
come to New Zealand for the safety and sanctuary of
being outside of Syria at that time, and he and
his son died. And I felt such responsibility because here
we were a nation that was meant to be a
form of safe harbor for that family, and they lost
(28:49):
their father and son, leaving behind a young girl, a sister,
a daughter, another son who was injured, and their mother
got to know that family a little bit, and the
fact that they, amongst others, were victims just absolutely devastated me.
So this idea that here we had a community he
(29:11):
intended when he undertook that attack to other our Muslim community.
And I really credit New Zealanders for the view that
they were just not going to let that happen. That
it didn't matter how long you had called New Zealand home,
it was home. It was home.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Hi everyone, it's me Kitty Couric. You know, if you've
been following me on social media, you know I love
to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of
my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,
Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman and Ininagarten. So I started a
free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and
(29:57):
kitchen mustaves. Just sign up correct dot com slash good Taste.
That's k A t I E c o U r
ic dot com slash good Taste. I promised your taste
buds will be happy. You did. You describe a phone
(30:22):
call with President Trump in your book after the attack,
in which you discussed what might happen to the terrorists,
and he asked you if you were calling the gunman
that you said to him, yes, this was a white
man from Australia who deliberately targeted our Muslim community. We
are calling him that. Tell me what you felt during
(30:42):
that exchange with President Trump.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, I mean it was really you know, in my mind,
giving just the opportunity to give some context for why
that language was important for us, because you know, by default,
you know, by definition, if you were seeking to cause
fear and intimidation amongst a wider group of individuals through
your act, that's a terrorist act. And so it was
(31:06):
very you know, we were clear eyed on that. But
we were also clear eyed on the fact that we
were not going to use his name. You know, if
he was seeking in for me, and he was, he
was part of a community of individuals who liked to
see the repetition of their names and their attacks, well
we could deny him that. And for me, empathetic leadership,
people centered leadership, it is nothing without action. The idea
(31:27):
that you're simply emoting is not enough. So there were
two things that came from this horrific experience. One was
the weapons that he used on that day to R fifteens,
in particular, alongside other military style semi automatic weapons. He
legally obtained them and then illegally modified them. But regardless,
(31:49):
these were weapons designed to take lives on mass and
they did that. I remember visiting the hospitals and just
coming away and seeing individuals who didn't have one gunshot,
where they had multiple wounds, you know, devastating wounds and
in such a short amount of time. And so we
were clear that our law needed to change, and so
we changed it. All members of parliament bar one, voted
(32:12):
in favor of a ban of military styles semi automatic
weapons within twenty seven days of the attack. And the
second thing we did. He used social media Facebook then
specifically to live stream his attack and it was broadcast
for seventeen minutes. It was uploaded once every second on
YouTube for the first twenty four hours, and one point
(32:34):
five million copies were removed from Facebook because, as I say,
his intention was to intimidate, to motivate others to violence,
to create this warfare, and that was one of his
tools was social media. So we created something that called
the Cross, which called to action, bringing together governments, platforms,
and civil society, first of its kind arrangement to try
(32:59):
and tackle rad vitalization and violent extremism online. And it's
still going to this day. I'm now the patron. A
number of things have changed as a consequence, but anyone
listening will know that work continues and it is one
of the I think great challenges we face.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You must look at this country and we've had so
many incidents of horrific gun violence at synagogues and schools
and places of worship and shopping centers and movie theaters.
I mean, I could go on and on, and yet
with some small changes during the Biden administration, it seems
(33:34):
that we have not been able to muster the collective
will to do anything about it, to make guns less available.
I mean, the right to bear arms the sort of
sacrosanct in this country. And I you know, watching as
a New Zealander, Jacinda, and now someone who lives in America,
I mean, do you have a difficult time understanding why
(33:57):
we haven't been able to do something. There's so many
people who want it done, and yet it never happens.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, And you know, I'm always careful commenting on other
people's politics and policies because it's sometimes just cultural differences
and perspectives that I just won't fully understand. But we
do have high levels of gun ownership in New Zealand.
But I think probably it's always been seen as you know,
(34:26):
whilst access was important, particularly as food producers and farmers
and hunters recreationally, it is still framed as a responsibility
versus a right. And I also think that we're pretty
pragmatic in New Zealand, and I think that when it
came down to it, accessing guns was one thing, the
type of guns was another. You know, I kind of
(34:46):
really challenged anyone to mount an argument for me as
to why they needed an AAR fifteen. If you're a
duck shooter, you do not need an AR fifteen. You're
a hunter pest management. So, you know, New Zealand is
I think a really pragmatic approach, and so we did
not take that law from nowhere that came out of Australia.
(35:07):
They had a horrific attack in Port Arthur and the
then Conservative Prime Minister by the name of John Howard
instituted a ban on these same weapons, but also at
the same time a buyback, and I really believed that
was the right approach. You know, at the time that
people had acquired them, they'd done so legally, and so
therefore we should compensate them. And so we paid, depending
(35:29):
on the state of the gun eighty percent of market value.
People had that money into their accounts and then we
destroyed them and for us it was over fifty thousand weapons.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
After the mask attack, then comes the pandemic. I'm like, wow,
your timing really sucks.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Just it does. It was actually a volcanic eruption in
between as well. Sorry, it was a real time. It
was for New Zealanders, you know, I remember.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I remember, sorry I mentioned the volcanic corruption and several
many people died. You were not able to evacuate that island, right.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Well, I mean they did evacuate individuals, but those who
remained very sadly had perished, and then we had to
undertake a body recovery. It was a horrific, horrific time. Again,
So yeah, New Zealand really went through a lot for
a few years there.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And then, like the rest of the world, you go
through the pandemic, and your handling of this crisis was
heralded as a model of effective leadership and I think
contributed to your landslide Re election in twenty twenty. But
as time went on, God, oh hard, yeah, I mean impossible.
(36:37):
There was such a backlash. In early twenty twenty two,
the grounds of Parliament in Wellington became the epicenter of
a sprawling and volatile protest. I remember in the documentary
someone says, this is not like Kiwi's yeah, the nickname
for New Zealanders. Where was this coming from and why?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And I think about that read a lot, because the
context of when we had that occupation in Parliament was
six days after the Canadian blockade started, yes the convoy.
So there was some conversation around the knock on effective
of that, because in the New Zealand context, we weren't
using things like lockdowns anymore. We had reopened our borders,
(37:22):
we were back into normal life. We were having our
first real experience of COVID with omicron, but we were
doing so with a vaccination raid around ninety percent. So
and then this happened, and of course the frame for
those who came was vaxing mandates we had required people
who were working in healthcare, education, around our borders and
(37:45):
in the police force at their request to be vaccinated.
And so I think it is important to look at
not only what the stated reason for that protest was,
but also what my sat underneath, because there's something universal
about that latter part of the COVID experience for a
(38:06):
lot of countries, not just US, a lot of countries.
And you know, it was occurring in a time of
I think, deep anger over the experience of the pandemic.
It was so hard, but also a lot of disinformation,
a lot of stuff swhirling from around different countries. We
saw some of the conspiracies that exist in the world
(38:27):
were on placards and signs down on our fore court,
you know, the odd American flag and so on. So
I think that there is a debate to be had
beyond geographic boundaries over what do we do about disinformation
as well as looking at just our pandemic responses. Generally,
(38:47):
we need to learn from the mouse wasn't a perfect response.
It saved and estimated twenty thousand lives. We spent less
time in lockdowns than you know, most countries. Our lives
for large periods was relatively normal, but it still had
an impact. It was still hard, and we need to
learn from that experience in retrospect.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Would you have done anything differently?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, I've always thought that, you know, because you have
in your mind the context in which you were making
all those decisions, that imperfect information. It's really hard to say, well,
I would have done that. But that doesn't mean you
shouldn't ask the question. We put in place a royal commission,
that's the most independent form of inquiry you can have
(39:31):
in New Zealand, and we put ex boots on there.
So please God tell us, you tell us objectively. And
so they did, and they came back with a range
of recommendations, and I don't disagree with any of them,
but we have to be willing to learn because this won't,
sadly be an isolated experience. I hope never again in
my lifetime, but we have to be prepared.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
The ugliness of some of those protesters was so upsetting
to me. The placards and the threats against you, and
just the meanness totally antithetical to what you're trying to
promote in this book and in your style of leadership.
And you described one moment in an airport bathroom when
a woman came up to you and said, thank you
(40:14):
for running our country. Yes, it is hard, and I'm
assuming you just didn't take these things personally.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, I mean even I mean, gosh, it's you know,
I remember, of course the occupation was terribly difficult.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And then the kind of aftermath, Jacinda, where you had
almost your own kind of January six where the police.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Well that was itself, the occupation, and mean, one thing
I kept in mind. Of course it wasn't everyone. Of
course it wasn't everyone, you know, and relative to our
population size, you know, it was a small portion, but
you know, it was nonetheless very confronting. But even then
I would look out over that crowd some days and
(40:55):
think everything we'd done was about trying to safe bull's
lives and protect people. But they think that's what they're doing.
Some people believe the vaccine killed people, you know, and
so they thought they were trying to save lives. And
so you could almost even in those two completely different positions,
(41:16):
see that, you know, if half of what they were
reading was true, you know, I might feel that angry
as well. But it's those two things. The fact that
we sometimes now can't even agree on facts. That's extremely
disruptive for democracies. And then the second people's willingness to
tip into violence is also I believe in this. The
(41:38):
research suggests increasing people thinks violence is justified now as
a political act. Those are two very challenging situations that
I do think need to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
So what do we do about it?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
While I do two things, I don't think we should
feel hopeless or a sense that there isn't work being
done in community to try and bridge those divides. People
talk about it as polarization. I see it more as entrenchment,
a depth of feeling that is intransigent. But I've certainly
come across groups that are working hard in their own
(42:11):
communities to try and restore the respectful debate in that dialogue.
The second thing is we do need to raise a
generation who are not cynical, but curious, who question what
they see, who ask questions, who seek alternative sources, to
really try and differentiate between the disinformation that they will
(42:31):
increasingly be exposed to op media literacy. Indeed, but I
do think we also need to hold accountable those who
are publishers, not postmen and at the moment, we have
a lot of platforms online who don't see themselves as
responsible for that information environment. I believe in a free
and open internet. I believe in freedom of speech, but
(42:54):
things like disinformation, this is something else that we have
to be willing to debate and talk about.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
You announced your resignation in January twenty twenty three, saying
you no longer felt you had enough in the tank
to do the job. Justice take us inside that moment.
I know this was a very hard decision for you.
It was talk about what kind of put you over
the edge. I mean, there were a few things leading
up to it. I know that you had a little
(43:22):
bit of a breast cancer scare. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe
that's oversteating it.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, I think it's It's interesting. I put it in
the in the book and someone asked me why didn't
you talk about this earlier? And I said, because it
wasn't the reason I left, and nor was it you know,
so significant or you know, women have that kind of
thing happened all the time. I didn't want to overstate it.
But what it did do is suddenly give me a
(43:47):
frame to think about you know, why, why when my
GP said, you need to go and have further testing.
Why was the first thing that came into my head
Maybe if this ends up being cancer, maybe I could leave.
And as soon as it hit hit, you know, came
into my mind, I thought, that is a very dark
(44:10):
that is a very dark way to think about this
new information. And it made me realize that I had
not entertained the idea because I felt such a sense
of responsibility to be there and that the only thing
that was going to take me out of it was
if I thought the choice was being removed. So that's
the reason that moment was important, because something I thought,
maybe I need to think about this a bit more.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
And then what was the thing that was there? One
thing or was just a culmination of things?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
There wasn't one thing, you know, and some people talk about,
you know, the aftermath of COVID. I left twelve months after,
you know, we'd continued on with life. There was nothing
politically particularly going on. Polling wise, we were you know,
a few points shy of where we were when I
was elected. There was nothing particularly dramatic, and I wanted
it that way because I think it's okay to leave
(45:01):
without scandal or death. Or loss. But actually just because
you know that you're not able to continue to be
the type of letter that you need to be in
that job, sometimes there's a responsibility to leave.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Why do you think so many politicians have difficulty doing that?
You know, so many people stay too long at the fair.
They don't want to give up the power, the prestige,
whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Too long at the fair. I love that turn and phrase.
It makes it sound like it's a really good time.
Too long at the gauntletness. You know, I understand how
it happens because obviously your team that surround you, they're
really supportive, they really encourage you, and sometimes you can
end up feeling like, you know, you'll be leaving people
(45:49):
adrift if you go. And also it's a lonely decision.
You can't talk too many about it because if it
gets out there you're thinking of leaving, that can be
in itself that can make the decision for you. And
so I totally understand how it happens. And I hadn't wils.
I really hadn't thought about it. You know, maybe maybe
(46:09):
by leaving it gave a little permission for people to
think differently about departure. I don't know. I don't know.
All I know is no one really particularly supported me
to leave, and so I had to do it in
spite of the views of others. And so I can
see how that happens for politicians.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, the pressure and depreciative. So people whose livelihood depends
on your staam put me and invertently kind of pressure
you to stay because they're thinking a lot about themselves, understandably.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
And you know, for me, it was, you know, we
were one year out from another election, and I believed,
you know that we had so much more work to
do on climate change, housing, chop poverty, things that really
mattered to me. So winning mattered to me because that
was the only way to keep making a difference on
those things. But it didn't I mean, I personally needed
(47:01):
to win. And there was a part of me that thought,
when you governed through COVID, you bring baggage, you do.
It's just it's the privilege and the price of the job.
I ended up having to make decisions I knew were unpopular.
I knew they were unpopular and that I'd pay a
price for them, but they still I thought of people
survived this pandemic because of it. Then that's worth it.
(47:22):
But it didn't mean that. I saw myself as a
bit of a flashpoint for some people, And if leaving
could bring the temperature down in politics, that would be
worth it too. That would be worth it too.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to katiecurrec dot com. It's
(48:02):
hard to imagine just send a politician more diametrically opposed
to your style of governing and your desire to lead
with compassion and kindness than the current President of the
United States, Donald Trump. And as a former world leader,
I'm curious what it's been like for you, especially now
(48:26):
that you're at Harvard, which is in the crosshairs. What
has it been like for you witnessing his behavior both
in this country and his efforts to remake the global
order in such a profound way.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
As the previous leader of a small country who's long
being affected by the engagement of others in multilateralism or
an international rules based order, you know, it matters to
me deeply whether or not we have a grave departure
of that sense of collective responsibility. When I think about
(49:05):
some of the significant challenges that we face. Pandemics don't
respect borders, neither disclimate change, and you know, our economic exposure. Generally,
we are so connected now, and the idea that we
can govern in a way that ignores that successfully, I
don't believe that to be true. I don't believe that
(49:26):
to be true because of how connected now we are.
But that's a view ol shee universally, regardless of who's
in power or what country I'm speaking to, you have to,
of course, as a politician, satisfy the domestic needs of
the people who elected you to serve them. But I
believe you're best able to do that whilst acknowledging the
connection that we have with others. The second thing for me,
(49:48):
though I never really saw myself on departure, is going
into the leadership space. I thought there's plenty of people
who are well seized in the practice of leadership, talk
about what's needed and the practice of leadership itself. But
because there was so much conversation around different forms in politics,
I was convinced to start a fellowship on empathetic leadership
(50:12):
and it has been one of the most satisfying things
I've been involved with since I left, because there are
there are politicians out there who are doing things differently,
but you won't see them in headlines. You won't see
them always in lights, even though they are often quite senior.
Because our system we gravitate towards reading and seeing and
(50:33):
experiencing and feeling the rage of the extremes. I want
to spotlight the alternative because it is there, and I
think it needs to be acknowledged and given half a chance,
I think voters will seek to reward it as well.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
There are many people who are very disheartened and disturbed
and concerned about what's happening yeah in the United States
right now, about democratic norms being ignored or democracy even
being dismantled. And I would love to ask you what
(51:09):
so many people ask me, what can we do? I
know you're a New Zealander, but you do live in
America and you do care about democracy and democratic principles,
and I think people are feeling so powerless and at
such a loss. I feel that way. Honestly. I'm trying
(51:33):
to help explain what's happening to people. That's where I
think I can be of service. But for people watching this,
what would you say to them? How can you give
them hope? Because I know that you say you're still optimistic,
and you're saying optimism is not naive, it's hope. And
you've quoted Lord Shackleton's well saying optimism is moral courage.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
It is.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
But I have to be honest. It's hard to be
optimistic right now.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
And I completely understand that. But my fear is that
without optimism, you know, without that expectation, because that's how
I see optimism. Optimism is an expectation that things can
and should be better, and there's a moment that we
lose that expectation, we run the risk of drifting into
a difference. And we can't afford that either, you know,
(52:22):
in terms of you know, messages, And again I am
an observerst I'm always careful to give these commentaries. But
what I'm suggesting is possible is within your own history.
And when you think about the tumultuous times that we've
gone through as global communities, you know, Great Depression, World
(52:43):
War Two, significant moments in time, and then you know,
predating that, of course, a horrific pandemic in influenza that
took out the same number of people. There's casualties in
those wars. We've had very extreme and tumultuous times as
humans before and during that time, you had a president
(53:04):
that many described as an empathetic leader in FDR who,
during great complexity of the Great Depression, where perhaps it
would have been easier just to resort to blame and fear,
would engage in fireside chats explaining to the American public
not only what was going on and you know, the
economic wins, but what the response would be. These aren't
(53:27):
These aren't lofty ideals that have never been implemented before.
There is examples of it in America's own history. As
long as people maintain an expectation of what they expect
in leadership.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
What are you most excited about when it comes to
your future. I know that you'll stay in Boston for
a while, How long do you think, Oh.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
We're looking for you know, always looking at what the
next adventure will be. We're not going to be away
from New Zealand forever. It's home. So we've always called
this little adventure and the first one was meant to
be three months it's just happens turned into two years.
But New Zealand is still home.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
As someone who's at Harvard, I mean, Harvard is under
incredible pressure, as I mentioned, in the crosshairs of the
Trump administration. What do you think about Harvard's pushback and
refusal to acquiesce to some of the things that the
administration is asking for and in fact suing the Trump administration?
(54:27):
And what is it like being at Harvard right now?
So I'm obviously not at the center. I'm not a
member of faculty. I mean, I know you're not.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Indeed, I think that's an important point to make. I'm
merely there as a fellow and undeniably obviously there's there's,
you know, a tense environment in this moment and time.
All I can reflect on is, you know, my own
time and leadership and politics back in New Zealand. You know,
we there was separation between government and higher education. We've
(55:00):
seen higher education as we call it a New Zealand
or tertiary education has almost been There's always a conscience,
you know, it's always there as a commentary on where
we are and society and politics, history, you know, our
place in the world for us certainly in New Zealand,
And I've always valued the clear separation between politics and
their ability to govern, manage and preside over that role
(55:27):
as a conscience. So that's my perspective from a New
Zealand governance perspective.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Here here's some questions from my followers. Just send it.
Will you ever come back to public service? I still,
in a way feel like I'm in some kind of
public service. I'm not campaigning for myself, but I'm campaigning
for humanity. What is your favorite girl Scout cookie?
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Oh? No, that has a story because in New Zealand
we have two types, plain and chocolate covered. And when
I discovered there's this whole range it is, it has
become a bit of a thing for me.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
So what is your favorite?
Speaker 2 (56:03):
Oh? I'm a great lover of the Caramel Deluge, and
I can say and caramel. I say this having tried
about I ordered a box from my local chapter. And
when I say a box, I mean a can of
like six different flavors, and the Caramel Delight is delicious.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Well, I'm a thin ment girl in the freezer, yes,
and the freezer, but I always eat the whole sleeve
and it's a real problem for that delicious? Okay, how
can we get America to elect a woman president?
Speaker 2 (56:33):
I you know, Gosh, I'm just gonna say this. It
will happen in my lifetime. I believe it, really, Yeah,
I do.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
I hope it happens in my lifetime too. Just said,
I'm a little older than you are.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
And I say that as someone who does not much
for my longevity. So that's my optimism.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, maybe fewer caramel delights would be helpful. What is
your favorite professional book or podcast?
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Oh? Do I expose my listening interests. Probably the podcast
that I have listened to the most over the years
is called Criminal. I love it. I love it. Phebe
Judge amazing, amazing podcast or amazing interviewer, such a calming voice,
so I've listened to it for years. I love it.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Any books that you have really loved that meet an
impression on you.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
I recently read Melinda French Gates book The Next Time Transitions. Yeah,
it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book. Beautiful. And I also
recently listened to the audiobook of The Beasting. It's such
an incredible Irish storytelling. There's something so strong about Irish
writers and so the beasting. I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Well, it's been such a thrill, as I said, to
meet you and talk to you, and congratulations on your book.
It is like giving birth. I can attest to that
a different kind of power. Just send to ardur and
how your official title is the Honorable Dean? What do
I have? What is your beav side?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
I go to tell you because I tell me I
prefer people not to use it. Think do you want
me to say it is problematic for me? Officially? It
would be the right Honorable Dame. Just sender it's too much.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
It's too much today, I'll just say just send me
thank you. I prefer thank you so much, Thank you.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
(58:35):
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(58:59):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's
(59:22):
Katie Curic. You know I'm always on the go between
running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course
covering the news, And I know that to keep doing
what I love, I need to start caring for what
gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to
try the Good Feet stores personalized arch support system. I
(59:43):
met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after
a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three
step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet,
knees and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot
com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book
your own free personalized fitting.
Host
Katie Couric
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