April 2, 2024 • 32 mins
Episode 4 of 10
We meet the single eyewitness at the heart of some of Scarcella’s high profile cases. Teresa Gomez claimed to witness 11 murders, and she brought them all to Scarcella. For Louie, she was a truth teller and a “special friend” who also boosted his career. For those she testified against, she was a crack addict and fabulist. We explore the complicated relationship of Louie and Teresa, and her reliability.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well
as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The
Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,
I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's
a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's
the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,
(00:22):
which reached number one on the charts when it debuted
half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders
abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled
to share this story of a man who fought the
law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide
prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela
(00:44):
of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Previously on The Burden.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
The cigar was given to me by a legendary detective
of the Brooklyn North Homicide Squad. Lewis had been the
detective on the first two murder cases. The defendant was
a dealer named Robert Hill.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I was talking to Robert Hill, said, Scarcella's the officer.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
In your case and He's like, yeah, I said, that's
the same officer in my case.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
He was known to use the same witness over and
over again, a woman named Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
This may sound funny coming from me. Where do you
get a witness who sees five murders? Eight murders? Teresa
Gomez is a motion picture extravagance or in her a story.
Her story is unbelievable and I believed every word she said.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Detective Scarcella and Teresa Gomez his favorite witness. They had
a partnership, a special partnership. Theresa was his secret weapon,
a key to solving some of Brooklyn's toughest cold cases
when no leads could be found. And solving tough cases,
that's what everyone wanted. Bad guys go to prison the end.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
The actual innocence team was trying to prove Scarcella was corrupt,
and for them, Theresa was key evidence. Louis and Teresa
go way back one night in the mid eighties. Louise
at a row house in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. It's a
worn brick building, nondescript except for one detail. There's a
(02:37):
dead body in the yard. Louis starts looking for witnesses.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
I go into the house, which is a crack house.
I go on the third floor and I always have
my gun. I always carry two guns. I kicked the
door open and Teresa Gum is in bed with this
on and she looks up and she says, who the
fuck you are? Gun smoke? Was had a cigar and
(03:05):
out my gun at and I says, bitch, get out
of bed. Dijon Amos shit his pants.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Right then and there. I felt something. I just felt
something about her.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
You know, who the fuck are you? Gun smoke? It
started there. I just felt a spark of something.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
That spark would lead Louis from a crack house to
the courtroom to a damning article on the front page
of the New York Times. Teresa Gomez would become the
star witness in half a dozen murder cases, all of
them Louise. The fates of those on trial hinged on
whether a jury believed her. So would Louise reputation, They
(03:57):
could go fuck themselves.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I did nothing wrong.
Speaker 6 (04:11):
I'm a sinner baby, I'm all a poll you need now,
I'm out of the bottom. I'm gonna set you free.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Welcome to the burden. I'm Dax deviln Ross.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I'm Seve Fishman. In this episode this crazy World of.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
Murder, they all knew about Teresa Teresa Goldman ter Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
The witness in these two cases was a crack addict
named Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There was no way that this woman had witnessed all
those murders.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Scarcella used her as a witness in six separate murder cases.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
As far as the crackheads seeing six homicides, that would
be surprising.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
She was in either the wrong place at the wrong
time or the right place at the right time on
multiple occasions.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Teresa Gomez, the woman that has been the center of
my life for the last nine and a half years.
Speaker 8 (05:17):
You gotta hold all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Okay. So back at the crackhouse, gun smoke aka Louis
Garcela bust through the bedroom door into an awkward situation.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Then Louis brings Teresa to the precinct for questioning. He
cleans her up, buys there some food and cigarettes, and
they talk.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
I have the gift of gab, as you probably nobody now.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So you're sitting in this room, I'm schmoozing hard of
six hours, may maybe even longer.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Okay, it's just what a detective does.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
We start talking about murders in the precinct.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Theresa didn't have anything to say about the body in
the yard, but she does start telling Scarcella about other murders,
cold cases with no promising leads.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
And I'm saying, wait a minute, Teresa, you were there,
and she says yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
And I'm saying, what about this? And oh what that
was this one? And that was this guy?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And so Louis had stumbled into a detective's dream, a
witness who seems to be everywhere and to see everything.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
It's surprise, happiness, a little nervousness, little butterflies in your
stomach because when you getting a witness that knows what
they're saying. And yeah, it was it was really a
good feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was like fucking triumph over and over again. Teresa
became Scarcella's go to witness. On another night, he had
another dead body in the yard and no leads.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
All of a sudden, I look at where I am
and I say, oh my god, Teresa lives in the
white house.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Around the corner. She lives in that house.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Go around the corner. I pressed the button on the
belt I still hear it. M she comes down, she
looks at me, she goes gun smoke. He killed my baby,
and she named the murderer who Louis arrested. Louis and
Teresa fell into a routine. I used to meet Teresa
(07:49):
Gomez in front of Saint Teresa's church and I would
just see her in the street and give it a
high sign, just to make sure she was alright. I
give it twenty dollars and we just talk and whatnot,
getting ready for the next case.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Or just talk, you know, about their favorite topic, murder.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Mostly small talk. This fucking guy's no good. This guy's
no good. Pocho did this murder with Troy and I.
I remember Pocho. We were looking for Pocho and Poacho.
She yeah, fucking Pocho.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Like any relationship, theirs had ups and downs. Sometimes Louis
would threaten to lock Theresa up for doing crack, just joking.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Of course, we had a relationship. I knew her. Sometimes
you tell me to go fuck myself, what would prompt
her to do that? And I tell how to go
fuck herself.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
She did have a sense of humor. Yeah, she was brave.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Did she know she was brave. I don't think she
gave a fuck, but.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
She gave enough of a fuck about her friend Louie
to risk her life for him. As they say, snitches
get stitches. And she participated in six different trials, all
Louise cases, according to the official count. And I've said
it once and I'll say it again. Who sees six murders?
Speaker 7 (09:15):
What's so shocking that she might witness multiple incidents?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Joe Ponzi was the chief investigator for the Brooklyn District
Attorney back then.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
He worked closely with Louis.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
She was moving from Crack then to Crack, then in
a concentrated area in the seven to seven precinct at
that time where violence was happening everywhere. So when people
scoff at the notion that a woman could have witnessed
multiple incidents, they have no concept of what it was
like back then.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The square mile where Teresa lived and operated was in
Scarcella's territory, and that time, the nineteen eighties, there was
an obscene number of murders in that square mile, like
one hundred per year, So one person could see a
lot of homicides, especially since those murders were clustered within
(10:15):
a few blocks of where Teresa stayed.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
But let's look at it another way. For Scarcelam, having
this witness who over and over again will help him
close cases that had to be great for his career.
Let's just look at the record. Within a few years
of meeting Teresa Gomez, he was promoted to the elite
Brooklyn North Homicide. He went from a lowly third grade
(10:38):
to a first grade detective, the highest level detective can achieve.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I was very happy because I was a third grade
for a number of years, and I did think that this.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Would help my career. I'd lie to you.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Look, my father was a third grade detective for twenty
seven years.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
He never made grade.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Took me twenty years to make first grade.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I knew she was helping me, and I would lie
to you if I said no.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Louis doesn't have an incentive to doubt the credibility or
question the motive of this woman. She was giving names,
he was arresting them, The prosecutors put her on the stand,
and the judges and juries sent them to prison. It worked.
Why question it?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It did work. It worked for the entire justice system.
In fact, no one in the system seemed to worry
about her credibility. I think most people just thought she
was useful. They didn't even know who she was.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's in a moment. For all the trials she testified in,
no one really seemed to know Theresa.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I had a really hard time getting information on her.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
She was middle of the road. She was never really happy,
never really said.
Speaker 7 (11:58):
There was nothing overly to stink about.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Her, skinny, average size, disheveled.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think she married somebody for residency.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I think she was Jamaican.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I understand that she was an immigrant from Trinidad.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
One person who did know Teresa was Robert Hill.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Remember Robert Hill. He is the one who helped launch
Frenchy's New York Times investigation into Scarcela.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Back in the nineteen eighties. Hill and Teresa moved in
the same circles. Both sold drugs. Hill sometimes sold Teresa
Krach even gave her a good customer discount. Robert Hill
made his living robbing drug dealers in one neighborhood and
selling their drugs in another. Later, Teresa said that he'd
robbed her at gunpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
She talks to Louis and accuses Hill of murder, but
it doesn't go the way she expected. Hill was picked up,
he was questioned, and then he was released. Teresa's life
must get really scary. And here's a guy she accused
of murder and he's back on the streets.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
So what should Teresa do? Better call Louie. The same
day Hill was released, Teresa contacts Detective Scarcella. She said
Hill wants quote big mouth Teresa Gomez to pay the piper,
and now, lucky for Teresa, it just so happens she
(13:30):
has another murder to offer Scarsella. She now tells her
favorite detective she saw Robert Hill kill someone else, so.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Let's get this street. She named Hill in one murder,
and once he's back out in the streets, she suddenly
remembers another murder she saw Hill committee once she had
neglected to mention before.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So the cops pick Hill up again on the very
same day he's released on the first murder.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
That's just astounding to me, and it makes me wonder
was she really a helpless drug addict or was she
a master manipulator. I mean, people claim Scarcella used Teresa,
but maybe it was the other way around. Maybe she
used him, and in this case, at least to survive.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I asked Scarcela about that.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
If she used me as her private homicide detective, she
used the district attorney's office. Also, she manipulated the system
and got over on people much smarter than me.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
You're the only.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Person who's saying that that didn't come up, but I
don't think so.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
In any event, Now, Robert Hill was headed to trial
for murder for two murders, actually back to back trials,
and Teresa she testified in both.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
The first traw came and went. Teresa said Robert Hill
did it, and the medical examiner said he couldn't have
done it.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Robert Hill was acquitted, but then a twist, the medical
examiner realized she made a mistake, but it was too late.
The trial was over. Now though Teresa is apparently credible again,
at least that's what the prosecutor is thinking, so he
(15:27):
figures he'll give her another shot at the second Robert
Hill trial. Before we get there, I want to remind
you of that Cigar Forum post, the one French he
discovered back in episode one.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It was near folly to even think that anyone would
believe Gomez about anything, let alone the fact that she
witnessed the same guy kill two different people.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
The guy who wrote that Cigar Forum post is the
prosecutor in both Robert Hill trials. He just loust the
first case, and the second is looming, and now he's
about to put Teresa on the stand again.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So the same prosecutor who says that no one should
believe Teresa is the same prosecutor who puts her on
this hand twice. I mean, this is just amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Listen. I think what he might be saying is he
feared no one would believe her.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
He hopes they will.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Okay, So let's examine her behavior in the courtroom. We
have transcripts from trial number two. In that case, Teresa
claims she saw Hill shoot the victim two times point blank.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Here's a question. The defense attorney asked Teresa, after the
first shot was fired, how long a period elapsed before
the second shot was fired. Teresa's answer, I can't say
how long a period of time before the second shot? Question?
Was it more than five minutes? Teresa responds if I
(17:00):
just say, I can't say, you can't ask me how
many minutes it was. At this point, the judge butts in, well,
do you know the difference between let's say five minutes
and fifteen minutes. Of course, I know the difference, your honor.
Was it closer to five minutes, closer to fifteen minutes?
Closer to five? Did you see him fall to the ground.
(17:23):
Of course I had to see him fall to the
ground in order to tell you that. What do you
think I'm crazy? Did he fall to the ground after
after the first shot and before the second shot? No,
he stood up and danced.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
She's belligerent, She's sarcastic.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
She's rude, frenchy, robless.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Ridiculous, argumentative, getting all the facts wrong. Doesn't remember.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The defense attorney had Teresa's testimony from the first trial,
so he can compare her answers in the second and
guess what. She's inconsistent. She's very inconsistent. In one trial,
she was married in eighty five. In another, she testified
she was married in eighty seven. In one she'd been
(18:14):
in Brooklyn seven years, in another twelve years. Theresa actually
admitted she lied in the first trial more or less
because she was in a bad mood.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Here's what Teresa says on the stand about her testimony
in that first trial. Quote, I could have testified to
anything because I was angry and frustrated and miserable. I
just didn't want to be bothered keep the defense counsel
from bugging me. End quote Dax.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
She just admitted to being a liar, and I gotta
wonder what the jury made of this. Well, we were
able to track down a juror from the second Robert
Hill case. The juror wanted to remain a none but
said that pretty much all the jury discussed was whether
Teresa was believable. This person explained the jury's reasoning. A
(19:09):
crack addict might have a damaged brain. She might not
remember certain details, but she would remember somebody blowing someone's
head off with a gun. A month or so after
the trial, this jurors with a friend on the subway
when they happened to run into the prosecutor. He thanked
(19:29):
the juror. He said, we finally got this guy. He's
murdered a lot of people, and he said that they'd
never been able to get him because none of the
previous witnesses came across as credible. Then he congratulated the juror.
You guys did the right thing, and the juror felt awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Robert Hill was convicted of murder in the second degree
and sentenced to eighteen to life.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Teresa Gomez, the woman of that has been the center
of my life for the last one hred and a
half years.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Louis is and has always been a believer in Teresa.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Teresa Gomez was a truthful eyewitness.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But the District Attorney's Conviction Review Unit could not disagree.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
More.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
The DA's office set up the CRU to reinvestigate questionable convictions,
and Robert Hills was one of them. Its investigation did
agree that Teresa could have witnessed six murders not unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
It concluded, so her prolificness as a witness, which seems
so scandalous today, it's plausible.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, but it does have problems with her credibility. The
report called her increasingly erratic, inconsistent, and incredible. It didn't
say Robert Hill was innocent, but it does say that
Teresa never should have been allowed to testify. Taylor cost
is one of the attorneys in the CRU who reviewed
Robert Hill's case. He wouldn't have believed anything Teresa said.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And in fact, in one of the trials she definitely testified.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Heyazac Kite and the judge had to stop the proceedings
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
But here's the shocker. Teresa Gomez, Scarcella's go to witness,
is usually seen as proof that he cheated to get convictions,
but the report is definitive in this regard quote. There
is no indication Scarcella pressured her to be a witness,
went out of his way to procure her as a witness,
(21:44):
or falsified her witness statements. Everyone knew who Teresa Gomez was.
It was totally up to prosecutors whether to use Gomez.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And they shouldn't have. But what I guess I'm struggling
with here is and correct me if I'm wrong. It
sounds like they're saying Scarcela is exonerated.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I think that's what they are saying, and I
do think it's confusing. I mean, the report basically says
that Louise's go to witness is basically crap, totally not believable,
But they don't say that Louis had any duty to
investigate her credibility. I mean, as a first grade detective,
(22:31):
you don't have to look at the credibility of your
lead witness. So one day I met Louis at the diner,
that same diner in Coney Island where we first met
years earlier.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Do you think you were ever gullible with her?
Speaker 5 (22:48):
If you're saying, did she get over on me? Did
she get over on a whole cadre of district attorneys?
Did she get over on the judge into yours?
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I think not.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I did my job.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
I thought she was a credible witness. She proved herself
to be a credible witness, and in some cases she
wasn't a credible witness.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That that.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I'm not gonna I'm not going to take.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Any blame for that.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
I'm not gonna say I'm sorry, But I brought her
to the DA and they bought her to court. Did
jury looked at her, the judge looked at her. The
judge could have thrown the cases out on any two
occasions during the during the trial.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So in Louis's mind, he's the person who's been wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Ray Childs could see that I'm an escapegoat.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But that's not how Robert Hill sees it. I mean,
he spent twenty seven years in prison because of Teresa
Gomez and it just shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
In May of twenty fourteen, Robert Hill limped into a
Brooklyn courtroom. The head of the cru addressed the court.
Speaker 9 (24:10):
District Attorney has determined the thief use of this witness,
impairing the integrity of the conviction against mister Hill, deprived
him of a fair trial.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Robert Hill was fifty two years old. His dreadlocks were
pulled back that day. He walked out of the court
a free man. With the help of a cane. He
was thronged by the press as he made his way to.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Freedom to build the out.
Speaker 10 (24:42):
Good.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I will go home my family right now, I think
about after all that's happened. Louis still insists he believes Teresa,
and he still cares about her.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
A lot of people considered a lot of these murders insignificant,
a lot of them, I'm telling you, a lot of
people in high places, and they would think Teresa Gomez
was insignificant. She was a crackhead, and she was special
(25:24):
to me. I offered her everything. I offered her a
new life. I I know I could have gotten her
a job. I know I could have gotten her a
place to stay.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
She wanted no part of it. Whenever you see my picture,
her picture comes up.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
And that's her there, and it's like taking me back
to the time we were together in this this this,
this this crazy world of murder.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Hey, Joe, Louis Scarsella, how waii, buddy.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I'm sitting in Louis Scarcella's house in Staten Island, a
modest house, two floors. Louis and his wife upstairs, one
of his daughters downstairs. It's Christmas. Louie's living room is covered,
I mean every surface in decorations.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Anything ever come out with the Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
We learned something new. The cru didn't have the full picture.
They didn't talk to Louis, and Louis told us Teresa
claimed to witness eleven murders. Even the DA thought that
eleven was just too many, and that ended Teresa's tenure
as a witness.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
That was in the.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Early nineties, the same time that Louie's relationship with Teresa.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Ended.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
As I sit at Louis's dining room table, it's almost
thirty years later, and Louis wants to find out what
happened to Teresa.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
So he's on the phone.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
As you said, you were going to check the morgue
if you got a chance.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
You know, if you can give me a call, I
appreciate it. Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Louie had heard a rumor that Teresa was killed in
the early nineties.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
What baffles my mind was right there in the seven
to seven.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It was my zone.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
How could she have gotten killed? Maybe it was a
homicide on a different name and it just went right
by me and I didn't catch it.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The cru located her death certificate. Teresa died on June seventeenth,
nineteen ninety three. She'd fallen out of a moving car.
The report doesn't say she was pushed, but a lot
of people must have been happy to see her dead. Louis,
for one, thinks it was a homicide. She's got to
(27:52):
know she's sacrificing her life to help Louis Carsella.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
I cannot aim answer that question. I tried everything I
could do to protect her.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Another time, Louis takes me to Teresa's mother's apartment in Brooklyn.
Maybe she can tell him what happened to Teresa, but
he's out of luck. A neighbor tells us that Teresa's
mother recently passed away. Louis disappointed, We get back in
my car and we drive to their meeting place in
front of Saint Teresa's church.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
She just get in the backseat and I would just
try to drive around. Sometimes I'd stay here. Sometimes I
meet her in a mom's house, but she would always
hang out around here. If I was looking for I'd
find her.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
As we sit in the car, suddenly the church bells ring.
The bells of Saint Teresa.
Speaker 11 (28:53):
Has the bells toll? What are they told for Lisa Gomez?
For Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I really I feel bad if she was murdered.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
I hope she wasn't, and if she was a hope
at interface because I'm not saying I got her killed.
I'm not saying that, but you are kind of but
I cannot feel I mean, if I wouldn't be human
if I didn't feel that way.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Next time on the Burden, The Dilemma of Derek Hamilton,
the leader of the jail house law firm who claims
he was framed twice.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
The judge puts his arms around me, I mean, and
a tight hug, and he kind of speaks into my
ear and he says, just take it easy, just calm down.
We both know who this guy is.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
We both know he's guilty.
Speaker 10 (30:11):
So can't you just calm down and let this go.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need now,
I'm out of the bottom.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by
Steve Fishman.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
That's me.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and Dax Devlin.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Ross.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our senior producer is Simon Rentner.
Our producer is Sanam Skelly, Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact
checking by Sona Avakian. Our production coordinator is Davon Paradise.
Mixing and sound design by Mumbo Media. Our executive producers
are Fisher, Stevens, Evan Williams and Me Steve Fishman. Additional
(30:58):
production help from Joe Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Bronner, Lucy Soucheck,
Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla Alabby, Jaxon Baard, Katie Simon,
and Katie Spranger. We give special thanks to Ellen Horn,
Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempey, Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey Lyla Robinson,
(31:18):
Mark Smerling and Jack Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to
Marcy Wiseman, special thanks to our agents Ben Davis and
Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook provided our legal advice. She's from
MKSR LLP. And a very special thanks to Evan Williams,
one of our executive producers and the person who made
(31:39):
this podcast possible. We are honored to feature the song
black Lightning from The Bell Rays as our theme music.
The Burden is a production of Orbit Media in association
with Signal Company Number one. Season two of The Burden
(32:09):
Empire on Blood will be available everywhere you get your
podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will be available early
and ad free, along with exclusive bonus content on Orbit's
newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts.
It's only two ninety nine a month.
Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well
as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The
Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,
I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's
a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's
the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,
(00:22):
which reached number one on the charts when it debuted
half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders
abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled
to share this story of a man who fought the
law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide
prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela
(00:44):
of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Previously on The Burden.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
The cigar was given to me by a legendary detective
of the Brooklyn North Homicide Squad. Lewis had been the
detective on the first two murder cases. The defendant was
a dealer named Robert Hill.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I was talking to Robert Hill, said, Scarcella's the officer.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
In your case and He's like, yeah, I said, that's
the same officer in my case.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
He was known to use the same witness over and
over again, a woman named Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
This may sound funny coming from me. Where do you
get a witness who sees five murders? Eight murders? Teresa
Gomez is a motion picture extravagance or in her a story.
Her story is unbelievable and I believed every word she said.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Detective Scarcella and Teresa Gomez his favorite witness. They had
a partnership, a special partnership. Theresa was his secret weapon,
a key to solving some of Brooklyn's toughest cold cases
when no leads could be found. And solving tough cases,
that's what everyone wanted. Bad guys go to prison the end.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
The actual innocence team was trying to prove Scarcella was corrupt,
and for them, Theresa was key evidence. Louis and Teresa
go way back one night in the mid eighties. Louise
at a row house in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. It's a
worn brick building, nondescript except for one detail. There's a
(02:37):
dead body in the yard. Louis starts looking for witnesses.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
I go into the house, which is a crack house.
I go on the third floor and I always have
my gun. I always carry two guns. I kicked the
door open and Teresa Gum is in bed with this
on and she looks up and she says, who the
fuck you are? Gun smoke? Was had a cigar and
(03:05):
out my gun at and I says, bitch, get out
of bed. Dijon Amos shit his pants.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Right then and there. I felt something. I just felt
something about her.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
You know, who the fuck are you? Gun smoke? It
started there. I just felt a spark of something.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
That spark would lead Louis from a crack house to
the courtroom to a damning article on the front page
of the New York Times. Teresa Gomez would become the
star witness in half a dozen murder cases, all of
them Louise. The fates of those on trial hinged on
whether a jury believed her. So would Louise reputation, They
(03:57):
could go fuck themselves.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I did nothing wrong.
Speaker 6 (04:11):
I'm a sinner baby, I'm all a poll you need now,
I'm out of the bottom. I'm gonna set you free.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Welcome to the burden. I'm Dax deviln Ross.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I'm Seve Fishman. In this episode this crazy World of.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
Murder, they all knew about Teresa Teresa Goldman ter Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
The witness in these two cases was a crack addict
named Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There was no way that this woman had witnessed all
those murders.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Scarcella used her as a witness in six separate murder cases.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
As far as the crackheads seeing six homicides, that would
be surprising.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
She was in either the wrong place at the wrong
time or the right place at the right time on
multiple occasions.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Teresa Gomez, the woman that has been the center of
my life for the last nine and a half years.
Speaker 8 (05:17):
You gotta hold all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Okay. So back at the crackhouse, gun smoke aka Louis
Garcela bust through the bedroom door into an awkward situation.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Then Louis brings Teresa to the precinct for questioning. He
cleans her up, buys there some food and cigarettes, and
they talk.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
I have the gift of gab, as you probably nobody now.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So you're sitting in this room, I'm schmoozing hard of
six hours, may maybe even longer.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Okay, it's just what a detective does.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
We start talking about murders in the precinct.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Theresa didn't have anything to say about the body in
the yard, but she does start telling Scarcella about other murders,
cold cases with no promising leads.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
And I'm saying, wait a minute, Teresa, you were there,
and she says yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
And I'm saying, what about this? And oh what that
was this one? And that was this guy?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And so Louis had stumbled into a detective's dream, a
witness who seems to be everywhere and to see everything.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
It's surprise, happiness, a little nervousness, little butterflies in your
stomach because when you getting a witness that knows what
they're saying. And yeah, it was it was really a
good feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was like fucking triumph over and over again. Teresa
became Scarcella's go to witness. On another night, he had
another dead body in the yard and no leads.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
All of a sudden, I look at where I am
and I say, oh my god, Teresa lives in the
white house.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Around the corner. She lives in that house.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Go around the corner. I pressed the button on the
belt I still hear it. M she comes down, she
looks at me, she goes gun smoke. He killed my baby,
and she named the murderer who Louis arrested. Louis and
Teresa fell into a routine. I used to meet Teresa
(07:49):
Gomez in front of Saint Teresa's church and I would
just see her in the street and give it a
high sign, just to make sure she was alright. I
give it twenty dollars and we just talk and whatnot,
getting ready for the next case.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Or just talk, you know, about their favorite topic, murder.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Mostly small talk. This fucking guy's no good. This guy's
no good. Pocho did this murder with Troy and I.
I remember Pocho. We were looking for Pocho and Poacho.
She yeah, fucking Pocho.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Like any relationship, theirs had ups and downs. Sometimes Louis
would threaten to lock Theresa up for doing crack, just joking.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Of course, we had a relationship. I knew her. Sometimes
you tell me to go fuck myself, what would prompt
her to do that? And I tell how to go
fuck herself.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
She did have a sense of humor. Yeah, she was brave.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Did she know she was brave. I don't think she
gave a fuck, but.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
She gave enough of a fuck about her friend Louie
to risk her life for him. As they say, snitches
get stitches. And she participated in six different trials, all
Louise cases, according to the official count. And I've said
it once and I'll say it again. Who sees six murders?
Speaker 7 (09:15):
What's so shocking that she might witness multiple incidents?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Joe Ponzi was the chief investigator for the Brooklyn District
Attorney back then.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
He worked closely with Louis.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
She was moving from Crack then to Crack, then in
a concentrated area in the seven to seven precinct at
that time where violence was happening everywhere. So when people
scoff at the notion that a woman could have witnessed
multiple incidents, they have no concept of what it was
like back then.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The square mile where Teresa lived and operated was in
Scarcella's territory, and that time, the nineteen eighties, there was
an obscene number of murders in that square mile, like
one hundred per year, So one person could see a
lot of homicides, especially since those murders were clustered within
(10:15):
a few blocks of where Teresa stayed.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
But let's look at it another way. For Scarcelam, having
this witness who over and over again will help him
close cases that had to be great for his career.
Let's just look at the record. Within a few years
of meeting Teresa Gomez, he was promoted to the elite
Brooklyn North Homicide. He went from a lowly third grade
(10:38):
to a first grade detective, the highest level detective can achieve.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I was very happy because I was a third grade
for a number of years, and I did think that this.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Would help my career. I'd lie to you.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Look, my father was a third grade detective for twenty
seven years.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
He never made grade.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Took me twenty years to make first grade.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I knew she was helping me, and I would lie
to you if I said no.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Louis doesn't have an incentive to doubt the credibility or
question the motive of this woman. She was giving names,
he was arresting them, The prosecutors put her on the stand,
and the judges and juries sent them to prison. It worked.
Why question it?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It did work. It worked for the entire justice system.
In fact, no one in the system seemed to worry
about her credibility. I think most people just thought she
was useful. They didn't even know who she was.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's in a moment. For all the trials she testified in,
no one really seemed to know Theresa.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I had a really hard time getting information on her.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
She was middle of the road. She was never really happy,
never really said.
Speaker 7 (11:58):
There was nothing overly to stink about.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Her, skinny, average size, disheveled.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think she married somebody for residency.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I think she was Jamaican.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I understand that she was an immigrant from Trinidad.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
One person who did know Teresa was Robert Hill.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Remember Robert Hill. He is the one who helped launch
Frenchy's New York Times investigation into Scarcela.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Back in the nineteen eighties. Hill and Teresa moved in
the same circles. Both sold drugs. Hill sometimes sold Teresa
Krach even gave her a good customer discount. Robert Hill
made his living robbing drug dealers in one neighborhood and
selling their drugs in another. Later, Teresa said that he'd
robbed her at gunpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
She talks to Louis and accuses Hill of murder, but
it doesn't go the way she expected. Hill was picked up,
he was questioned, and then he was released. Teresa's life
must get really scary. And here's a guy she accused
of murder and he's back on the streets.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
So what should Teresa do? Better call Louie. The same
day Hill was released, Teresa contacts Detective Scarcella. She said
Hill wants quote big mouth Teresa Gomez to pay the piper,
and now, lucky for Teresa, it just so happens she
(13:30):
has another murder to offer Scarsella. She now tells her
favorite detective she saw Robert Hill kill someone else, so.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Let's get this street. She named Hill in one murder,
and once he's back out in the streets, she suddenly
remembers another murder she saw Hill committee once she had
neglected to mention before.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So the cops pick Hill up again on the very
same day he's released on the first murder.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
That's just astounding to me, and it makes me wonder
was she really a helpless drug addict or was she
a master manipulator. I mean, people claim Scarcella used Teresa,
but maybe it was the other way around. Maybe she
used him, and in this case, at least to survive.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I asked Scarcela about that.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
If she used me as her private homicide detective, she
used the district attorney's office. Also, she manipulated the system
and got over on people much smarter than me.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
You're the only.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Person who's saying that that didn't come up, but I
don't think so.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
In any event, Now, Robert Hill was headed to trial
for murder for two murders, actually back to back trials,
and Teresa she testified in both.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
The first traw came and went. Teresa said Robert Hill
did it, and the medical examiner said he couldn't have
done it.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Robert Hill was acquitted, but then a twist, the medical
examiner realized she made a mistake, but it was too late.
The trial was over. Now though Teresa is apparently credible again,
at least that's what the prosecutor is thinking, so he
(15:27):
figures he'll give her another shot at the second Robert
Hill trial. Before we get there, I want to remind
you of that Cigar Forum post, the one French he
discovered back in episode one.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
It was near folly to even think that anyone would
believe Gomez about anything, let alone the fact that she
witnessed the same guy kill two different people.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
The guy who wrote that Cigar Forum post is the
prosecutor in both Robert Hill trials. He just loust the
first case, and the second is looming, and now he's
about to put Teresa on the stand again.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So the same prosecutor who says that no one should
believe Teresa is the same prosecutor who puts her on
this hand twice. I mean, this is just amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Listen. I think what he might be saying is he
feared no one would believe her.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
He hopes they will.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Okay, So let's examine her behavior in the courtroom. We
have transcripts from trial number two. In that case, Teresa
claims she saw Hill shoot the victim two times point blank.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Here's a question. The defense attorney asked Teresa, after the
first shot was fired, how long a period elapsed before
the second shot was fired. Teresa's answer, I can't say
how long a period of time before the second shot? Question?
Was it more than five minutes? Teresa responds if I
(17:00):
just say, I can't say, you can't ask me how
many minutes it was. At this point, the judge butts in, well,
do you know the difference between let's say five minutes
and fifteen minutes. Of course, I know the difference, your honor.
Was it closer to five minutes, closer to fifteen minutes?
Closer to five? Did you see him fall to the ground.
(17:23):
Of course I had to see him fall to the
ground in order to tell you that. What do you
think I'm crazy? Did he fall to the ground after
after the first shot and before the second shot? No,
he stood up and danced.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
She's belligerent, She's sarcastic.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
She's rude, frenchy, robless.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Ridiculous, argumentative, getting all the facts wrong. Doesn't remember.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The defense attorney had Teresa's testimony from the first trial,
so he can compare her answers in the second and
guess what. She's inconsistent. She's very inconsistent. In one trial,
she was married in eighty five. In another, she testified
she was married in eighty seven. In one she'd been
(18:14):
in Brooklyn seven years, in another twelve years. Theresa actually
admitted she lied in the first trial more or less
because she was in a bad mood.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Here's what Teresa says on the stand about her testimony
in that first trial. Quote, I could have testified to
anything because I was angry and frustrated and miserable. I
just didn't want to be bothered keep the defense counsel
from bugging me. End quote Dax.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
She just admitted to being a liar, and I gotta
wonder what the jury made of this. Well, we were
able to track down a juror from the second Robert
Hill case. The juror wanted to remain a none but
said that pretty much all the jury discussed was whether
Teresa was believable. This person explained the jury's reasoning. A
(19:09):
crack addict might have a damaged brain. She might not
remember certain details, but she would remember somebody blowing someone's
head off with a gun. A month or so after
the trial, this jurors with a friend on the subway
when they happened to run into the prosecutor. He thanked
(19:29):
the juror. He said, we finally got this guy. He's
murdered a lot of people, and he said that they'd
never been able to get him because none of the
previous witnesses came across as credible. Then he congratulated the juror.
You guys did the right thing, and the juror felt awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Robert Hill was convicted of murder in the second degree
and sentenced to eighteen to life.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Teresa Gomez, the woman of that has been the center
of my life for the last one hred and a
half years.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Louis is and has always been a believer in Teresa.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Teresa Gomez was a truthful eyewitness.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But the District Attorney's Conviction Review Unit could not disagree.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
More.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
The DA's office set up the CRU to reinvestigate questionable convictions,
and Robert Hills was one of them. Its investigation did
agree that Teresa could have witnessed six murders not unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
It concluded, so her prolificness as a witness, which seems
so scandalous today, it's plausible.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, but it does have problems with her credibility. The
report called her increasingly erratic, inconsistent, and incredible. It didn't
say Robert Hill was innocent, but it does say that
Teresa never should have been allowed to testify. Taylor cost
is one of the attorneys in the CRU who reviewed
Robert Hill's case. He wouldn't have believed anything Teresa said.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And in fact, in one of the trials she definitely testified.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Heyazac Kite and the judge had to stop the proceedings
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
But here's the shocker. Teresa Gomez, Scarcella's go to witness,
is usually seen as proof that he cheated to get convictions,
but the report is definitive in this regard quote. There
is no indication Scarcella pressured her to be a witness,
went out of his way to procure her as a witness,
(21:44):
or falsified her witness statements. Everyone knew who Teresa Gomez was.
It was totally up to prosecutors whether to use Gomez.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And they shouldn't have. But what I guess I'm struggling
with here is and correct me if I'm wrong. It
sounds like they're saying Scarcela is exonerated.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I think that's what they are saying, and I
do think it's confusing. I mean, the report basically says
that Louise's go to witness is basically crap, totally not believable,
But they don't say that Louis had any duty to
investigate her credibility. I mean, as a first grade detective,
(22:31):
you don't have to look at the credibility of your
lead witness. So one day I met Louis at the diner,
that same diner in Coney Island where we first met
years earlier.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Do you think you were ever gullible with her?
Speaker 5 (22:48):
If you're saying, did she get over on me? Did
she get over on a whole cadre of district attorneys?
Did she get over on the judge into yours?
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I think not.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I did my job.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
I thought she was a credible witness. She proved herself
to be a credible witness, and in some cases she
wasn't a credible witness.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That that.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I'm not gonna I'm not going to take.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Any blame for that.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
I'm not gonna say I'm sorry, But I brought her
to the DA and they bought her to court. Did
jury looked at her, the judge looked at her. The
judge could have thrown the cases out on any two
occasions during the during the trial.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So in Louis's mind, he's the person who's been wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Ray Childs could see that I'm an escapegoat.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But that's not how Robert Hill sees it. I mean,
he spent twenty seven years in prison because of Teresa
Gomez and it just shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
In May of twenty fourteen, Robert Hill limped into a
Brooklyn courtroom. The head of the cru addressed the court.
Speaker 9 (24:10):
District Attorney has determined the thief use of this witness,
impairing the integrity of the conviction against mister Hill, deprived
him of a fair trial.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Robert Hill was fifty two years old. His dreadlocks were
pulled back that day. He walked out of the court
a free man. With the help of a cane. He
was thronged by the press as he made his way to.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Freedom to build the out.
Speaker 10 (24:42):
Good.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I will go home my family right now, I think
about after all that's happened. Louis still insists he believes Teresa,
and he still cares about her.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
A lot of people considered a lot of these murders insignificant,
a lot of them, I'm telling you, a lot of
people in high places, and they would think Teresa Gomez
was insignificant. She was a crackhead, and she was special
(25:24):
to me. I offered her everything. I offered her a
new life. I I know I could have gotten her
a job. I know I could have gotten her a
place to stay.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
She wanted no part of it. Whenever you see my picture,
her picture comes up.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
And that's her there, and it's like taking me back
to the time we were together in this this this,
this this crazy world of murder.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Hey, Joe, Louis Scarsella, how waii, buddy.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I'm sitting in Louis Scarcella's house in Staten Island, a
modest house, two floors. Louis and his wife upstairs, one
of his daughters downstairs. It's Christmas. Louie's living room is covered,
I mean every surface in decorations.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Anything ever come out with the Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
We learned something new. The cru didn't have the full picture.
They didn't talk to Louis, and Louis told us Teresa
claimed to witness eleven murders. Even the DA thought that
eleven was just too many, and that ended Teresa's tenure
as a witness.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
That was in the.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Early nineties, the same time that Louie's relationship with Teresa.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Ended.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
As I sit at Louis's dining room table, it's almost
thirty years later, and Louis wants to find out what
happened to Teresa.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
So he's on the phone.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
As you said, you were going to check the morgue
if you got a chance.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
You know, if you can give me a call, I
appreciate it. Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Louie had heard a rumor that Teresa was killed in
the early nineties.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
What baffles my mind was right there in the seven
to seven.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It was my zone.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
How could she have gotten killed? Maybe it was a
homicide on a different name and it just went right
by me and I didn't catch it.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The cru located her death certificate. Teresa died on June seventeenth,
nineteen ninety three. She'd fallen out of a moving car.
The report doesn't say she was pushed, but a lot
of people must have been happy to see her dead. Louis,
for one, thinks it was a homicide. She's got to
(27:52):
know she's sacrificing her life to help Louis Carsella.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
I cannot aim answer that question. I tried everything I
could do to protect her.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Another time, Louis takes me to Teresa's mother's apartment in Brooklyn.
Maybe she can tell him what happened to Teresa, but
he's out of luck. A neighbor tells us that Teresa's
mother recently passed away. Louis disappointed, We get back in
my car and we drive to their meeting place in
front of Saint Teresa's church.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
She just get in the backseat and I would just
try to drive around. Sometimes I'd stay here. Sometimes I
meet her in a mom's house, but she would always
hang out around here. If I was looking for I'd
find her.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
As we sit in the car, suddenly the church bells ring.
The bells of Saint Teresa.
Speaker 11 (28:53):
Has the bells toll? What are they told for Lisa Gomez?
For Teresa Gomez.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I really I feel bad if she was murdered.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
I hope she wasn't, and if she was a hope
at interface because I'm not saying I got her killed.
I'm not saying that, but you are kind of but
I cannot feel I mean, if I wouldn't be human
if I didn't feel that way.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Next time on the Burden, The Dilemma of Derek Hamilton,
the leader of the jail house law firm who claims
he was framed twice.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
The judge puts his arms around me, I mean, and
a tight hug, and he kind of speaks into my
ear and he says, just take it easy, just calm down.
We both know who this guy is.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
We both know he's guilty.
Speaker 10 (30:11):
So can't you just calm down and let this go.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need now,
I'm out of the bottom.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by
Steve Fishman.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
That's me.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and Dax Devlin.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Ross.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our senior producer is Simon Rentner.
Our producer is Sanam Skelly, Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact
checking by Sona Avakian. Our production coordinator is Davon Paradise.
Mixing and sound design by Mumbo Media. Our executive producers
are Fisher, Stevens, Evan Williams and Me Steve Fishman. Additional
(30:58):
production help from Joe Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Bronner, Lucy Soucheck,
Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla Alabby, Jaxon Baard, Katie Simon,
and Katie Spranger. We give special thanks to Ellen Horn,
Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempey, Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey Lyla Robinson,
(31:18):
Mark Smerling and Jack Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to
Marcy Wiseman, special thanks to our agents Ben Davis and
Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook provided our legal advice. She's from
MKSR LLP. And a very special thanks to Evan Williams,
one of our executive producers and the person who made
(31:39):
this podcast possible. We are honored to feature the song
black Lightning from The Bell Rays as our theme music.
The Burden is a production of Orbit Media in association
with Signal Company Number one. Season two of The Burden
(32:09):
Empire on Blood will be available everywhere you get your
podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will be available early
and ad free, along with exclusive bonus content on Orbit's
newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts.
It's only two ninety nine a month.
Hosts And Creators
Dax-Devlon Ross
Steve Fishman
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